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Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

nytimes.com

31–40 of 415 posts

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#31
post #5

What is to stop the DOJ from requiring them to produce a phone that has a hardware backdoor? If they are required to produce a software backdoor then building an iphone which is immune to such vulnerabilities seemingly solves that problem but I don't see the leap towards compelling Apple to build vulnerabilities into hardware as a large one. I'm not well versed in security so excuse me for my ignorance but what if th…

What if another agency already has an NSL in place requiring exactly the same (backdoor, weak crypto params, weak by design secure enclave) and they simply are under a gag order to talk about?

NSLs can only ask for information, not force a company to build a product. That kind of request would have to come through legislation and apply to all US companies in a similar situation.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you use a strong alphanumeric password to unlock your phone, there is nothing Apple has been able to do for many years to unlock your phone Is this true even if you use Touch ID?

Does TouchID have any protections against your finger unlocking your phone post-mortem?

No, although I'd love to see a HealthKit app that uses your Apple Watch as a dead man's switch, and disables Touch ID or powers the phone off in the event the watch is removed or your pulse is no longer detected.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Apple would start pushing passphrases. Easy enough to remember, plenty strong, already usable with the current system on iphones.

Nobody would adopt them. It's annoying enough to deal with 4 digits when it's cold and I'm wearing gloves and I just want to change the song I'm listening to. Passphrases suck enough whenever you have to log back in. Are people really gonna put up with that every time they want to use their phone? On the other hand, if there were a convenient way to toggle between passphrases and 4-digit unlock, (especially if you ha…

I'd love to have a long passphrase that has to be entered after booting and every 48 hours, and then a 4-digit pin that's usable when TouchID is for when I'm unlocking my phone with my nose.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#34
post #7

Don't they just need to tell people to switch away from 4 or 6 digit pins and use longer passwords?

I wish Apple would start pushing passphrases. Easy enough to remember, plenty strong, already usable with the current system on iphones.

They already do, on phone bootup. You can use the fingerprint the rest of the time instead.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#35
post #9

that's the endgame of government surveillance requests: it's increasingly in a company's best interest to have the best security possible so they can't be compelled to hack their own devices.

Surely it is a company's best interests to have 'good enough' looking security to serve their PR purposes while also secretly providing government access to maximise government kudos and all the benefits that would entail?

Perhaps for a middle-end device, but the iPhone is a flagship device that's the main revenue bringer for the Apple.

You don't compromise there, it's against your customer base and your product positioning, and furthermore it dilutes your brand.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#36
Any device that relies on hiding secrets inside the silicon itself is subject to hacking. Several secure-enclave like chips have been hacked in the past by using electron microscopes and direct probes on the silicon. If BlackHat conference independent security researchers have the resources to pull this off, Apple and the NSA certainly can. Exfiltrating the Enclave UID could be done by various mechanisms at the chip level, especially if you have access to the actual HW design and can fab devices to help.

I mean, we're talking about threat models where chip-level doping has been shown as an attack. This just seems to be a variation on the same claims of copy protection tamper resistant dongles we've had forever. That someone builds a secure system that is premised on a secret being held in a tiny tamper-resistant piece, only the tamper resistance is eventually cracked.

It might even be the case that you don't even need to exfiltrate the UID from the Enclave, what the FBI needs to do is test a large number of PIN codes without triggering the backoff timer or wipe. But the wipe mechanism and backoff timer runs in the application processor, not on the enclave, and so it is succeptable to cracking attacks the same way much copy protection techniques are.

You may not need to crack the OS, or even upload a new firmware. You just need to disable the mechanism that wipes the device and delays how many wrong tries you get. So for example, if you can manage to corrupt, or patch the part of the system that does that, then you can try thousands of PINs without worrying about triggering the timer or wipe, and without needing to upload a whole new firmware.

I used to crack disk protection on the Commodore 64 and no matter how sophisticated the mechanism all I really needed to do was figure out one memory location to insert a NOP into, or change a BNE/BEQ branch destination, and I was done. Cracking often came down to mutating 1 or 2 bytes in the whole system.

(BTW, why the downvote? If you think I'm wrong, post a rebuttal)

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Apple would start pushing passphrases. Easy enough to remember, plenty strong, already usable with the current system on iphones.

Nobody would adopt them. It's annoying enough to deal with 4 digits when it's cold and I'm wearing gloves and I just want to change the song I'm listening to. Passphrases suck enough whenever you have to log back in. Are people really gonna put up with that every time they want to use their phone? On the other hand, if there were a convenient way to toggle between passphrases and 4-digit unlock, (especially if you ha…

Can't songs just be changed from the lockscreen (i.e., no unlocking needed)? Either way, your point still stands...

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#38
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have access to a live finger for the TouchID, sure they can bypass - but they could do that with the $5 guaranteed coercion method as well [1]. Copying a good fingerprint from a dead finger or a randomly placed print is not easy [2]. It's hard, doable but you get 5 tries so if you screw up, you have thrown away all the hard work of the print transfer. All bets are off if the iPhone is power-cycled. Best bet i…

> All bets are off if the iPhone is power-cycled. Best bet if you're pulled over by authorities or at a security checkpoint is to turn off your iPhone (and have a strong alphanumeric passcode). Excellent advice. Even better, if you're about to pass through US customs and border patrol, backup the phone first, wipe, and restore on the other side. Of course, this depends on your level of paranoia. I am paranoid.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#39
post #5

What is to stop the DOJ from requiring them to produce a phone that has a hardware backdoor? If they are required to produce a software backdoor then building an iphone which is immune to such vulnerabilities seemingly solves that problem but I don't see the leap towards compelling Apple to build vulnerabilities into hardware as a large one. I'm not well versed in security so excuse me for my ignorance but what if th…

What if another agency already has an NSL in place requiring exactly the same (backdoor, weak crypto params, weak by design secure enclave) and they simply are under a gag order to talk about?

@jzdziarski: "NSA isn't about to divulge their capabilities by burning exploits on a case that, thanks to FBIs ego, is high profile."

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#40
post #7

Don't they just need to tell people to switch away from 4 or 6 digit pins and use longer passwords?

I wish Apple would start pushing passphrases. Easy enough to remember, plenty strong, already usable with the current system on iphones.

A secure passphrase requirement would kill Apple overnight.

Low-friction UI has been Apple's differentiator for years. If you have to take the time to type out a secure passphrase every time you want to interact with your phone, people will stop interacting with their phones (or use phones that suck less).

Why do you think they built Touch ID? Because typing even a 4-digit PIN is too annoying!

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