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Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

programmingforbeginnersbook.com

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Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#31

Post by Zikes »

crdoconnor wrote: post #11
nv-vn wrote: post #3

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better t…

>You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. How is that alienating?

Many times I've seen that it's been out of a genuine desire to solve the asker's problem, but the asker has already started down the wrong path and is determined to see it through.

A recent example: someone was using a map/hash object to store a series of documents, and needed a way to extract N items from the map for pagination reasons. They presented a for loop but said that something "felt wrong" about that. Many of the comments were about how maps had no guarantees about order, and that each attempt to grab a "page" of objects would result in a random set, meaning pages 1, 2, and 3 could all conceivably have common items, rendering pagination fundamentally broken.

There were several suggestions to use an ordered array of map keys, but the asker was determined, stating "it's just for testing purposes, order doesn't matter, I should never have mentioned pagination".

Maybe there's an important detail that the asker left out, but by all accounts they were given sound advice and even working examples, but they still seemed frustrated and would likely describe the experience as "alienating".

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#32

Post by jchendy »

crdoconnor wrote: post #11
nv-vn wrote: post #3

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better t…

>You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. How is that alienating?

Presumably OP felt like the "why are you doing this?" response came with an implication that they shouldn't be doing it.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#34

Post by nine_k »

froh42 wrote: post #4

I feel StackOverflow is a bad place even as a professional. I don't agree with 90% of "closing" of questions, frequently closing a question is the ultimate upvote. StackOverflow seems to prefer questions that can be answered by just copying the fine manual - and frowns on those that might involve discussion. From time to time I still use it, but for me it has jumped the shark.

Some questions apparently don't belong to StackOverflow, because its stated purpose is to collect provably correct answers, not based on (mere) personal opinion.

OTOH there is definitely a need for a forum for the questions that get closed on SO but collect a huge number of upvotes. These are important questions and answers, people want and need them, and keep asking and answering them.

One important question is whether the approach to the site governance used on stackexchange sites would work on such a forum.

Quora tries to somehow serve as such a forum, but it lacks the focus of SO.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#35

Post by froh42 »

mhurron wrote: post #8

> Attempt to answer the question, or don’t comment at all. Don’t tell them to RTFM, Google it, No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it. Someone asking a question that is answered in the documentation or has been asked and answered over and over should be pointed at those sources. One of the most important skills anyone is going to learn in a…

In fact, sometimes I do answer with lmgtfy.com. But in such an answer I always include a helpful answer. Why?

- Either they couldn't find it. Then my answer will help. - Or they were to stupid/lazy to search. Then they're not worthy of my ire.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#36

Post by adekok »

nv-vn wrote: post #3

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better t…

> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it.

As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain.

Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution."

To someone familiar with the problem space, the question is often nonsensical. It's based on false assumptions about how the API / system works. So the question is largely un-answerable.

The only possible response, then, is "Don't talk about the solution. Talk about the problem. What goal are you trying to accomplish? Maybe there's a different solution which can help you reach that goal."

This response can be seen as obtuse and unhelpful by the questioner. But it's often the only possible response, given the incorrect assumptions.

e.g. Q: How do I get diesel into my gas car? The nozzle just doesn't fit!

A: Why are you trying to do that?

Q: Stop being annoying, and just help me!

A: No, really... why are you trying to do that?

(after some back and forth)

Q: My car is in front of the diesel pump, and the hose from the gas pump won't reach.

A: Well... move your car.

It's not always that simple, but the back & forth is similar. It's hard work convincing people that their assumptions are wrong, and that they have to re-visit their assumptions, and re-do all of their previous work.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#38

Post by sergiotapia »

I joined StackOverflow when it was about 9 months old, it's completely different now and I would not recommend it for new developers. The vast majority of moderators and people who close questions are among the worst dweebs I have ever spoken to online.

They have some minuscule, irrelevant taste of power, and it immediately goes to their heads. And in their eyes they are correct.

Instead, opt to go to a forum. For example, if you develop with ember go to their forums, meteor, go to their forums, elixir? They have a slack channel. Etc. Anything but stack overflow.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#39

Post by [deleted] »

jeremysmyth wrote: post #19
froh42 wrote: post #4

I feel StackOverflow is a bad place even as a professional. I don't agree with 90% of "closing" of questions, frequently closing a question is the ultimate upvote. StackOverflow seems to prefer questions that can be answered by just copying the fine manual - and frowns on those that might involve discussion. From time to time I still use it, but for me it has jumped the shark.

and frowns on those that might involve discussion No, it explicitly forbids questions that involve discussion. The point of Stack Overflow is (and to a large extent always was) to be the place for definitive answers (and their alternatives) to well-asked questions. It is not a place for discussions, ranked opinions, interesting conversations, or anything else that does not have a "right" or "best-guess" answer. It so…

[deleted]

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#40

Post by sanderjd »

splintercell wrote: post #12
froh42 wrote: post #4

I feel StackOverflow is a bad place even as a professional. I don't agree with 90% of "closing" of questions, frequently closing a question is the ultimate upvote. StackOverflow seems to prefer questions that can be answered by just copying the fine manual - and frowns on those that might involve discussion. From time to time I still use it, but for me it has jumped the shark.

Same here. I feel like StackOverflow after nearly 10 years of closing questions such as 'Which is a better framework X or Y', should be honored at /r/DesirePath. Like at which point do they understand that maybe their desire conflicts with how most community wants to use SO as.

I keep waiting to see a competitor take off because it starts by encouraging those sorts of questions, and then secondarily accepts all the other sorts of questions SO does. Of course it's more difficult to start a new community because of network effects, but a decent place to start might be to find a bunch of the popular closed questions on SO and reach out to the questioner and some of the good answerers to come participate on your site instead. If this exists already, I'd love a pointer to it!
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