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Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

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31–40 of 82 posts

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#31

Why is it illegal to operate money transfer? Why founders are responsible for the crimes committed by its users? Are they guilty because the business was "unlicensed" or did they specifically promoted crime in some way?

You can't operate MSB these days without complying with regulations regardless of where you operate from. Laws for MSB's anywhere require them to comply with legislation based on where their costumers are originated. When you move money from your US account to your friends in the UK through say PayPal; PayPal has to comply with the regulations in both the US and the UK. Amongst those things the MSB also needs to ensu…

I agree. You have to look at the intent of the business. LR's primary use was illicit, whether they explicitely advertised themselves as such or not, they were still out of regulation and obviously not innocent.

Also it's customer, not costumer.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#33
post #12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Licensure requires compliance with various laws. Liberty Reserve was structured to not comply with any of those laws or regulations. It's like anything else. If you operating a nightclub, and there's a crowd of people selling meth in the bathroom all night, you're facilitating a crime.

Crimes require victims.

10,000 years of history disagrees with you.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LR was based in Costa Rica.

Need to be licensed as an MSB is based on where your customers are located, not your business.

US Law does not apply to Costa Rica-- it's outside their jurisdiction. That's one of the fundamental problems here.

The US could pass a law that Sainsburies (a UK grocery store, with no US locations) has to employ a jazz band at every one of their stores for 3 hours every friday afternoon... but it doesn't matter, because the US does not have jurisdiction over the UK. Even if a US citizen goes and visits and stops by a sainsbury and is upset at the lack of a jazz band.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#35
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimes require victims.

No they don't; but they should.

This is the distinction between a crime and something that is illegal. On HN people rarely make the distinction because they think something being illegal makes it a crime.

Illegal means it violates a law. A crime is something that actually harms someone.

Gay marriage may have been illegal, but it was never a crime, for example.

Alas, these days the USA is a very authoritarian culture and the idea that there might be US laws that are themselves crimes to enforce seems alien. But logically and morally it is the case.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't operate MSB these days without complying with regulations regardless of where you operate from. Laws for MSB's anywhere require them to comply with legislation based on where their costumers are originated. When you move money from your US account to your friends in the UK through say PayPal; PayPal has to comply with the regulations in both the US and the UK. Amongst those things the MSB also needs to ensu…

I agree. You have to look at the intent of the business. LR's primary use was illicit, whether they explicitely advertised themselves as such or not, they were still out of regulation and obviously not innocent. Also it's customer, not costumer.

Strong accusations.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#38
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimes require victims.

Crimes require violation of criminal law, which may or may not involve a victim (the legally offended party in a crime isn't the victim, if any, but the State; that's a pretty central distinction between crimes and torts.)

Depends on your definition of crime. From a legal sense, you are correct but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#39
Liberty Reserve's main line of business was operating a shared ledger trusted by multiple companies which would exchange cash for ledger entries and ledger entries for cash, earning a fee each time. Think like Western Union except minus all the pesky regulated bits.

LR was a direct reaction to what had befallen e-gold, which was in fundamentally the same business except it did all of the cashing first-party (early in life, at any rate). e-gold was shut down for being a money laundering operation, principally because it was a money laundering operation.

LR was also a money laundering operation. It observed various issues e-gold had had, such as being physically located in the US (though theoretically registered in a country friendly to money laundering), and intentionally fixed these bugs with the intent of being the most robust money laundering operation it could be.

This ended up not working out, which is why the vacuum that urgently desires a money laundering operation has replicated the same hub-and-spokes model with the hub being a cryptocurrency (presently Bitcoin) and the spokes being exchanges and LocalBitcoins sellers. The onramps/offramps to Bitcoin are exposed to a variety of ways to curtail their operations but the central trusted DB required for them to cooperate is not controlled by anyone who can be conveniently extradited. People in the Bitcoin community refer to this obliquely as either "censorship resistance" or "resistance to policy attacks."

If you're interested in the history of this, Paypal and e-gold were approximately contemporaries, and one of the reasons Paypal succeeded and e-gold did not was that Paypal conspicuously courted respectability, so that even if Paypal was also doing hundreds of millions of dollars of fraud and illicit transactions it would be unlikely to indict them as a criminal enterprise because they were a proper company whose lawyers wore suits and whose VCs were quite respectable. Bitcoin collectively cottoned onto the wisdom of having its fronts benefit from the same factor as opposed to being, well, insufficiently socially insulated from legal process. (I can accurately summarize who makes Bitcoin exchanges but it would read like a parody.)

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#40
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimes require victims.

1) No[0] 2) Usually money laundering means the money was obtained illegitimately. That money had to come from SOMEWHERE, and someone was probably harmed in the taking of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime

More often than not the only victims are victims because of the government actions. Violence triggered purely by its prohibitions or previous actions.
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