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VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

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Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#31

Post by mugsie »

tw04 wrote: post #12
pfarnsworth wrote: post #10

It wasn't myopia. VMWare suffered from the same thing that other companies have gone through. They tried/are trying not to cannibalize their main source of revenue, and the world has moved on without them. CloudFoundry was their way of attempting to control the conversation, but it failed. They couldn't go from a lucrative private cloud revenue stream and then somehow convert it to a public cloud and expect to make t…

I literally don't know of any large companies moving away from virtualization to bare metal. Where is that information coming from? I know of some that are deploying some things back to "bare metal" if that's what you want to call containers, but even in those instances, it's a very, VERY small subset of the larger environment.

I do know a few companies are using tools like OpenStack Ironic to do "Metal as a Service" - basically using a full machine like a VM.

That said it is usually deployed beside a cloud like thing, and only used for select workloads.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#32

Post by elcct »

I've been using VMWare Workstation for years and it is awesome product reasonably priced, but other VMWare products are too expensive. I think they have missed opportunity there big time. There is nothing in their offering for startups for example.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#33

Post by pfarnsworth »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #10

It wasn't myopia. VMWare suffered from the same thing that other companies have gone through. They tried/are trying not to cannibalize their main source of revenue, and the world has moved on without them. CloudFoundry was their way of attempting to control the conversation, but it failed. They couldn't go from a lucrative private cloud revenue stream and then somehow convert it to a public cloud and expect to make t…

I find it fascinating that people react so violently to the notion that virtualization is dying. And being ex-VMware myself from the pre-IPO days, there's no need to sell me on the virtues of virtualization.

The point is, when you're talking about building up large datacenters from scratch, virtualization is an unnecessary expense. My ex-VMware coworkers have spread through the Valley, and when I chat with them, they are saying the same things.

Apple Siri is 100% on bare metal and Mesos. My friends at Uber also say the same thing, that they don't use virtualization at all, and the ex-VP of engineering of VMware is there now. My friends at HDP who see a lot more customers and installations that I do say that they haven't seen any of their customers using virtualization at all, they see bare metal and mesos/yarn. Someone on the previous thread mentioned Spotify is the same way.

If you're building up a datacenter from scratch, the trend is to now use bare metal and avoid virtualization altogether. Sure, if you're currently a datacenter with virtualization, you're not going to rip it out. As I mentioned above, it's not dead, and it will still be around 10 years from. But it will be relegated to a legacy app.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#34

Post by mugsie »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #33
pfarnsworth wrote: post #10

It wasn't myopia. VMWare suffered from the same thing that other companies have gone through. They tried/are trying not to cannibalize their main source of revenue, and the world has moved on without them. CloudFoundry was their way of attempting to control the conversation, but it failed. They couldn't go from a lucrative private cloud revenue stream and then somehow convert it to a public cloud and expect to make t…

I find it fascinating that people react so violently to the notion that virtualization is dying. And being ex-VMware myself from the pre-IPO days, there's no need to sell me on the virtues of virtualization. The point is, when you're talking about building up large datacenters from scratch, virtualization is an unnecessary expense. My ex-VMware coworkers have spread through the Valley, and when I chat with them, they…

Mesos is a form of virtualisation - just a different type.

I am not surprised HortenWorks customers are on containers / bare metal - the over head for their workloads that would be caused by a traditional hypervisor would be costly.

For single tenant DCs - there might be less virtualisation in coming years, but Mesos / Docker have not yet implemented the same layer of isolation that KVM / Xen / ESXi have, so we will still see (traditional) virtualisation in shared environments.

Also - Amazon / Azure / Rackspace are quite definitely not going to have it relegated as legacy.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#35

Post by pfarnsworth »

mugsie wrote: post #34
pfarnsworth wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it fascinating that people react so violently to the notion that virtualization is dying. And being ex-VMware myself from the pre-IPO days, there's no need to sell me on the virtues of virtualization. The point is, when you're talking about building up large datacenters from scratch, virtualization is an unnecessary expense. My ex-VMware coworkers have spread through the Valley, and when I chat with them, they…

Mesos is a form of virtualisation - just a different type. I am not surprised HortenWorks customers are on containers / bare metal - the over head for their workloads that would be caused by a traditional hypervisor would be costly. For single tenant DCs - there might be less virtualisation in coming years, but Mesos / Docker have not yet implemented the same layer of isolation that KVM / Xen / ESXi have, so we will…

Those aren't private datacenters. Amazon/Azure/Rackspace/Google Cloud are public datacenters providing services for customers, so they will obviously be using virtualization. Personally I think public cloud is going to kill private cloud altogether, but that's an entirely different discussion. But in the specific case of private datacenters, I believe, virtualization is dead, and many of my colleagues share the same opinion. Just because it's not common around the world doesn't mean that the change in trend and thoughts hasn't hit an inflection point. Virtualization has done an amazing job, and there's a reason why it has become so popular. But just like all other technologies, I think its going to be passed for something simpler that scales better.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#36

Post by bones6 »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #35
mugsie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mesos is a form of virtualisation - just a different type. I am not surprised HortenWorks customers are on containers / bare metal - the over head for their workloads that would be caused by a traditional hypervisor would be costly. For single tenant DCs - there might be less virtualisation in coming years, but Mesos / Docker have not yet implemented the same layer of isolation that KVM / Xen / ESXi have, so we will…

Those aren't private datacenters. Amazon/Azure/Rackspace/Google Cloud are public datacenters providing services for customers, so they will obviously be using virtualization. Personally I think public cloud is going to kill private cloud altogether, but that's an entirely different discussion. But in the specific case of private datacenters, I believe, virtualization is dead, and many of my colleagues share the same…

I think you might be more accurate to say 'dead among highly innovative startups and tech giants'. You are probably totally correct long term on the dying, but it's going to be a few decades before Fortune 1000 and especially healthcare conglomerates move everything away from private cloud virtualization. Inflection points aside, that massive change takes a long time to be realized.

Your original comment makes it seem like it's all passé and old hat. It's going to be part of business in general for a long time and someone is going to have to work on it and develop it until it's gone.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#37

Post by pfarnsworth »

bones6 wrote: post #36
pfarnsworth wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't private datacenters. Amazon/Azure/Rackspace/Google Cloud are public datacenters providing services for customers, so they will obviously be using virtualization. Personally I think public cloud is going to kill private cloud altogether, but that's an entirely different discussion. But in the specific case of private datacenters, I believe, virtualization is dead, and many of my colleagues share the same…

I think you might be more accurate to say 'dead among highly innovative startups and tech giants'. You are probably totally correct long term on the dying, but it's going to be a few decades before Fortune 1000 and especially healthcare conglomerates move everything away from private cloud virtualization. Inflection points aside, that massive change takes a long time to be realized. Your original comment makes it see…

From experience, trends change very quickly. Sun went from one of the 4 Horsemen of the Internet to dead in 10 years.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#38

Post by jacques_chester »

jeletonskelly wrote: post #27
jacques_chester wrote: post #7

> They've already started that with containers. Docker orchestration platforms like Kubernetes and Mesos are still rough around the edges and there is room in the space for VMware to get in and leverage the benefit of their size and engineering bench. VMWare started doing this circa 2010-11. Eventually that project turned into the first version of Cloud Foundry. Edit: forgot my usual disclaimer that I work for Pivota…

Let's be honest though, CloudFoundry isn't a cloud. It's deployed onto a cloud provider like AWS and runs your apps on virtual machines inside an EC2 instance. It's useful if you want to abstract away your cloud provider, but it's not a cloud provider in and of itself. Disclaimer: Currently working with a customer deploying to Cloud Foundry.

It just depends on what you mean by "a cloud".

I usually refer to Cloud Foundry as a PaaS. It sits on top of an IaaS like AWS, OpenStack, Azure or vSphere, managed by BOSH.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#39

Post by jacques_chester »

mugsie wrote: post #34
pfarnsworth wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it fascinating that people react so violently to the notion that virtualization is dying. And being ex-VMware myself from the pre-IPO days, there's no need to sell me on the virtues of virtualization. The point is, when you're talking about building up large datacenters from scratch, virtualization is an unnecessary expense. My ex-VMware coworkers have spread through the Valley, and when I chat with them, they…

Mesos is a form of virtualisation - just a different type. I am not surprised HortenWorks customers are on containers / bare metal - the over head for their workloads that would be caused by a traditional hypervisor would be costly. For single tenant DCs - there might be less virtualisation in coming years, but Mesos / Docker have not yet implemented the same layer of isolation that KVM / Xen / ESXi have, so we will…

> Mesos is a form of virtualisation

Is it? To me Mesos is a system for job management across a heterogenous pool of compute resources.

Re: VMware's Stumbling Cloud Adventure

#40

Post by abiox »

jacques_chester wrote: post #39
mugsie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mesos is a form of virtualisation - just a different type. I am not surprised HortenWorks customers are on containers / bare metal - the over head for their workloads that would be caused by a traditional hypervisor would be costly. For single tenant DCs - there might be less virtualisation in coming years, but Mesos / Docker have not yet implemented the same layer of isolation that KVM / Xen / ESXi have, so we will…

> Mesos is a form of virtualisation Is it? To me Mesos is a system for job management across a heterogenous pool of compute resources.

to me, your descriptor could perhaps refer to a kind of application virtualization.
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