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Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

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Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#31

Post by RodericDay »

ryandrake wrote: post #27
RodericDay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Wealth isn't a zero-sum game, but power/influence is.

Relative wealth is zero-sum, and relative wealth disparity can and does negatively affect you. Let's stay your wealth/income remains static, but most people around you see a great increase in their own wealth/income. You are certainly less better off now because all this extra wealth in your area will increase demand for goods and thus prices. See Bay Area housing market for an example.

Yeah, my original comment simplifies. I'm just trying to find common ground with "grow the size of the pie" thinkers.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#32

Post by andrewtbham »

I'm unsure how this anecdote proves anything about a correlation between empathy and wealth.

Whether you are rich or poor, you can have empathy. If you're interested in empathy, I suggest you watch this brenee brown video. The video may seem anecdotal but she has done a lot of research about shame and vulnerability and... having read her books, money is not something that comes up in the research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#33

Post by danharaj »

RodericDay wrote: post #13
white-flame wrote: post #11

If the poor end of the wealth gap are still better off than 90% of the rest of the world, why does the wealth gap matter? That was my thinking for quite a while. However, the one thing that happens here in the US is that the wealthy have more representation and power in the legal system. Be it federal or local, the systems tend to get slanted against the not-wealthy because the wealthy take over the communications ch…

Exactly. Wealth isn't a zero-sum game, but power/influence is.

If wealth weren't power, then wealth wouldn't be wealth.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#34

Post by crimsonalucard »

From the rich mans' perspective it's empathy. From the poor mans' perspective it's unfair and unjust and they feel a sort of jealousy for a person who extracts so much wealth from the economy.

We as humans are social creatures. We have evolved feelings of empathy and jealousy because it was effective for the survival of the social group.

The caveat is we've also evolved feelings that promote survival of the individual at the expense of the group. The task is to identify which feelings are aligned to self interest and which promote the survival of the group.

I would argue that feelings of jealousy, envy and vengeance do not promote survival of the individual. These feelings actually harm the individual when he acts alone. Instead I would say these feelings exist to promote more fair social behavior in big groups.

When wealth inequality becomes too extreme, poor people begin revolting.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#35

Post by rayiner »

white-flame wrote: post #11

If the poor end of the wealth gap are still better off than 90% of the rest of the world, why does the wealth gap matter? That was my thinking for quite a while. However, the one thing that happens here in the US is that the wealthy have more representation and power in the legal system. Be it federal or local, the systems tend to get slanted against the not-wealthy because the wealthy take over the communications ch…

Even leaving aside rich using their status to solidify their position, consider this: are the policies that maximize GDP and lead to high wealth inequality the same policies that maximize the prosperity of the middle 50% of the population? No economic rule I know of guarantees that to be the case.

Wealth isn't created in a vacuum. Wealth can only be created in places with a high level of social order. That social order isn't created by exceptional individuals, it's created by the behavior and attitudes of ordinary people. Given that, why should societies not structure themselves to maximize the prosperity of the majority?

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#36

Post by beat »

sharemywin wrote: post #10

Capitalism works best when two parties have similar information, resources, etc. Cell phone contracts are a perfect example. They've had teams of lawyers, arbitration and everything thing else on their side and lobbyists to write the laws to fit them. I can sign it or leave it. I also remember democracy isn't two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. So I'm not saying socialism's the answer either. I think t…

Read Peter Thiel. The perfect capitalism of frictionless competition and complete transparency is the enemy of its own intent. In highly competitive and transparent markets, profits are driven asymptotically to zero. Groceries, gasoline, airline tickets... these are extremely low-margin industries.

Capitalism succeeds only when capitalism fails - when monopolies (global or local) appear that permit high-friction (and thus high profit) transactions. This can be old-school abusive monopolies that we regulate against, or it can be monopolies of craftsmanship - products so superior to the competition that they're peerless.

At any rate, capitalism where everyone has similar information and resources works quite poorly.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#37

Post by beat »

rayiner wrote: post #35
white-flame wrote: post #11

If the poor end of the wealth gap are still better off than 90% of the rest of the world, why does the wealth gap matter? That was my thinking for quite a while. However, the one thing that happens here in the US is that the wealthy have more representation and power in the legal system. Be it federal or local, the systems tend to get slanted against the not-wealthy because the wealthy take over the communications ch…

Even leaving aside rich using their status to solidify their position, consider this: are the policies that maximize GDP and lead to high wealth inequality the same policies that maximize the prosperity of the middle 50% of the population? No economic rule I know of guarantees that to be the case. Wealth isn't created in a vacuum. Wealth can only be created in places with a high level of social order. That social ord…

The problem is, the policies that maximize transfer of wealth upwards can overwhelm growth policies. That's the situation of the American economy. As it becomes less about wealth generation and more about rent, the already-wealthy benefit disproportionately from control of resources.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#38

Post by paulpauper »

Maybe we need to come to terms with the fact that the http://greyenlightenment.com/the-meritocracy-we-dont-underst... meritocracy is one stratified by IQ, with some having the cognitive potential to produce more merit than others, and those smarter people will tend to rise to the top socially and economically, too. But the benefit is we get new technologies, job creation, and higher standards of living. That doesn't mean we need to do away with merit, but instead offer economic conditions for everyone to succeed within their cognitive potential. You can't raise society and the economy by chopping down the smartest, the most successful, which is I think what Paul Graham was getting at. Class warfare is analogous to Animal Farm where the uprising makes things worse.

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#39

Post by civilian »

ilaksh wrote: post #18

The biggest problem is the false belief that success is based on merit. This leads to classism. Classism is just as bad as a caste system, but the meritocracy myth makes it harder to take down.

I would say that merit is one of a few paths to success.

Is it really a good idea to get rid of the "meritocracy myth"? Even if it's 100% true, there is something to the idea that if you put in effort and work hard, you have a better chance of being rewarded. The meritocracy myth encourages hard work.

If we lived in a society where people truly believed that that hard work, intelligence and effort had no correlation to success, then.... how does one plan their ambitions? How does one even go about trying to earn more money?

Re: Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

#40

Post by vinceguidry »

I don't understand the point he makes about forced discretionary spending. I have never bought a round of drinks at a bar, except in foreign countries where a round cost me less than $5. I don't ever feel like there's discretionary spending I'm forced to take. I either can afford it or I can't, and if I can't, I don't buy it and I don't feel guilty about it.

I buy other's drinks all the time. Never a whole round. That's ridiculous. Why he felt obligated to do that was left unsaid, but I doubt his reasons would convince me that he was actually forced to do that.

More generally, as you rise up the social ranks, you have to get more and more comfortable with gross differences in wealth and learn to be able to be comfortable with and accommodate socially those with so much more or so much less than you. This guy never seemed to learn that trick.

Were I buying a round of drinks and everyone else got $5 drinks and this one guy wanted a $20 drink, I'd have been like, "Ooh dude, can't really swing that, mind getting something cheaper?" If he does mind, just don't buy his drink. He's not going to get mad if you can't afford to buy him a drink.

Buying rounds at all, though, that's just insane if you need to keep a strict budget. It smacks of irresponsibility. If people are taking turns buying rounds, just opt out and pay for what you drink.

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