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The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

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Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#31

> Meteor has yet to establish itself as a mainstream development technology on the same level as Rails or even vanilla Node.js... almost four years after Meteor first launched, I have to admit I thought the framework would be more widespread by now. So what happened? A more general answer, I feel like the web programming world doesn't really need new frameworks, does it? Rails or Django got mainstream adoption becaus…

"likewise with frontend JS frameworks" And jQuery. Probabil still the most used JS library.

jQuery is not a framework, though (neither is react but people usually mean using it with a flux or flux-like library, like baobab, when they say react. jQuery has no such go-to companion).

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#32
post #23

The startup I'm with right now just finished a meteor/react project that I led. This article really touched on our major pain-point with the learning cliff that you hit after a certain point. We used FlowRouter since it has React support, but managing subscriptions correctly (let alone caching them) took way more time than we had anticipated. It wasn't until near the end of the project that we realized none of us act…

So why did you pick a tech stack for this project, given that you had not used it before, sounds like no-one in your team had either, nor is this stack widely used (afaik)?

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#33

> Meteor has yet to establish itself as a mainstream development technology on the same level as Rails or even vanilla Node.js... almost four years after Meteor first launched, I have to admit I thought the framework would be more widespread by now. So what happened? A more general answer, I feel like the web programming world doesn't really need new frameworks, does it? Rails or Django got mainstream adoption becaus…

I don't see evidence for consolidation around front end JS (http://trends.builtwith.com/javascript/javascript-library). We'll probably be stuck with yet another framework syndrome for a while...

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#34

The thing which prevented me to use meteor for big projects is it looks really monolithic from the outside. What happens if suddenly I want to rewrite part of the back-end or part of the front-end with something else for various reasons ? What happens if I want to switch from MongoDb to RethinkDb or Postgres for some reason ? It's good to have default choices but it looks from the outside that the default choices wit…

> What happens if I want to switch from MongoDb to.. Postgres.. The default choices with meteor are pretty fixed

This is exactly the reason I'm not using meteor - and it's not so much wanting the ability to switch backends as knowing in advance I want to use an SQL database like Postgres, and not Mongo. With meteor, it's Mongo or nothing.

I believe SQL integration is on their roadmap, but I think now it's too late.

You can in fact use React as the view layer with meteor, so for an app using React, the remaining killer feature of meteor 6 months ago was optimistic updates, with database sync all handled. But, there was still the hard limitation that you must use it with Mongo, which simply made it a no go. I commented about this here, a couple of times, and others did too. I even asked a few months ago if there was a library that just provided the optimistic updates feature. Well, now there is one that looks promising, though it's still early days and I've not used it yet - Facebook's Relay - with complete React integration, caching, request management and optimisation, and yes, optimistic updates and sync. The difference though, is that it talks to a graphql server, which can be written over any database at all - with Relay the frontend is entirely agnostic about the database used, by design, because it talks to it through a middle tier. There's no reason for me to wait for meteor to implement SQL integration any more, because now another solution has come along.

I still don't understand why meteor made the choice of a hard dependency on Mongo if they ever wanted to become mainstream. Had they not, it's very likely that many developers, myself included, would have picked up meteor over the past year and would be hooked on it. Now though, that train is rapidly leaving the station, at least for devs on the React stack. I think they missed their window.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#35
I did a little project with meteor in its early (pre 0.5) days. At some point internal errors I could not understand started cropping up. Nobody in the community at the time could help. In the end I wrote the app in go and angular. The idea of meteor seemed nice at the time but in practice it wasn't fun. The all in approach means you should also understand what goes on under the hood because when the engine fails and nobody knows why, you are stuck.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#36

The big mistake was trying to provide anything beyond Minimongo on the client side. People are very picky about what front-end frameworks they use on the front end, and typically people who have strong opinions about that are less opinionated about what they use on the back end. I'm firmly in that camp, for instance. I've been a huge fan of Firebase for a while because it frees me from the tedium of having to create…

Let's avoid turning this into a "Meteor is doomed" or "Meteor failed" comment thread; Meteor is and has been growing consistently since it launched (see: https://twitter.com/Rahul/status/673992512768507905 ). The title of Sacha's post reads a bit inflammatory, suggesting something "went" wrong and that it's too late now. Rather, as his post explains, the community is currently in a bit of an identity crisis as two gr…

About the tweet: It's not a graph, rather some neat bars, until it has some numbers. It is suggested that it shows relative growth, make it relative to point zero and you get undefined-ly long bars, or compress it to make it look like the product is stagnating: http://i.imgur.com/TOBLaSa.png

Also, consistent growth isn't really enough, usually, to capture a market and exponential growth is usually expected from startups.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#37

> Meteor has yet to establish itself as a mainstream development technology on the same level as Rails or even vanilla Node.js... almost four years after Meteor first launched, I have to admit I thought the framework would be more widespread by now. So what happened? A more general answer, I feel like the web programming world doesn't really need new frameworks, does it? Rails or Django got mainstream adoption becaus…

"likewise with frontend JS frameworks" And jQuery. Probabil still the most used JS library.

I believe this is correct to the point where jQuery is synonymous with javascript and thus doesn't need to be even mentioned. Plus jQuery isn't really a framework.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#38
I like Meteor and am using it for my current project, but I architected it in a way to stay away from their pub/sub model where you publish partial data sets to the client. I believe this only has utility where you have a feed of data that you want to filter or sort on a lot of different attributes.

Instead, I just utilize `Meteor.Methods` for all client/server interaction. I actually think it's pretty nice because you define the method on the client as a "stub" that gets called as it waits on the server response. I think the tutorials and guides focus too heavily on their fancy client/server mongo magic.

Though something that is a bit frustrating reading this is that I left React. I found it overly-complicated for my product and preferred architecting everything in terms of templates. Blaze is threatened by React? How? I like React, but I can't exactly get behind writing HTML components in javascript because whoa man, a diff engine & "look ma! I'm being functional!" I realize the benefits of uni-directional flow, but all it really did was add a lot more conceptual weight to a pretty simple interface.

So I said, this is pointless let's just simplify things with Meteor + Blaze. Now Meteor says, it's "threatened" by React?

Re: The State of Meteor Part 1: What Went Wrong

#40

The big mistake was trying to provide anything beyond Minimongo on the client side. People are very picky about what front-end frameworks they use on the front end, and typically people who have strong opinions about that are less opinionated about what they use on the back end. I'm firmly in that camp, for instance. I've been a huge fan of Firebase for a while because it frees me from the tedium of having to create…

Let's avoid turning this into a "Meteor is doomed" or "Meteor failed" comment thread; Meteor is and has been growing consistently since it launched (see: https://twitter.com/Rahul/status/673992512768507905 ). The title of Sacha's post reads a bit inflammatory, suggesting something "went" wrong and that it's too late now. Rather, as his post explains, the community is currently in a bit of an identity crisis as two gr…

Agreed.

This seems to be the same issue with other frameworks when they get to a point where they have enough adaptation and find out they need to change/update parts of their framework to get it to the next level.

Same thing is happening right now with AngularJS. Been around for a while, had massive adaptation, then they realized they needed to make major changes. Enter pivot to 2.0 which pissed a lot of people off, but the heat is dying down now and people are coming to their senses.

I'm pretty sure at some point React and other frameworks will hit their wall too.

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