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BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

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Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#31

Post by pbh101 »

Terr_ wrote: post #26

Another problem with "dummy cameras" for PUBLIC institutions is that they are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being funded and provided. What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency? P.S.: I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras, because they'l…

I wouldn't say anything to the municipality if it was shown to be a cost-effective measure to improve the situation. It sounds like you presuppose there is also a lack of emergency response capacity, but that is a separate issue.

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#32

Post by realusername »

jheriko wrote: post #17

many cameras /everywhere/ are 'decoys' although often through lack of maintenance and being broken rather than intentionally. as much as they are being a security hole, they are also a cheap deterrent. i'd rather we have them than not. most criminals are smart enough to not want to be seen... despite the misconception that many criminals are stupid, desperate or somehow abnormal people who do not behave like 'the res…

Indeed... cameras need to be maintained when they are broken, the video quality of cameras is not really good for space reason so the footage is not usable all the time, the videos need to be stored somewhere with a good backup system and must obey local laws about data retention, different cameras are managed by different people so you need some paperwork to access everything which might be needed, they need to be checked regularly to see if they still work fine... Putting all of this in place is not really cheap and easy to maintain all the time, that's why not everything works 100% of the time.

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#33

Post by ceejayoz »

Terr_ wrote: post #26

Another problem with "dummy cameras" for PUBLIC institutions is that they are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being funded and provided. What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency? P.S.: I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras, because they'l…

> What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency?

That'd probably depend on a) whether or not they're deterring crime and b) whether or not the overall response time is reasonable.

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#35

Post by sliverstorm »

lowmagnet wrote: post #4
mynewtb wrote: post #2

Surveillance is not security, surveillance is surveillance. I an glad to hear that not all cameras monitor our every step.

Dummy cameras feel like 'Security Theater' to me.

More panopticon, maybe?

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#37

Post by spike021 »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #30
Terr_ wrote: post #26

Another problem with "dummy cameras" for PUBLIC institutions is that they are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being funded and provided. What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency? P.S.: I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras, because they'l…

This is an actual thing: "ghost units" - empty police cars placed around to stop people from speeding. http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20130730/ARTICLES/13073995...

The sad thing is I've seen plenty of patrol cars _with_ actual officers in them seemingly not taking breaks per se, but still ignoring blatant traffic law-breaking happening all around them.

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#38

Post by archgoon »

lowmagnet wrote: post #4
mynewtb wrote: post #2

Surveillance is not security, surveillance is surveillance. I an glad to hear that not all cameras monitor our every step.

Dummy cameras feel like 'Security Theater' to me.

No, 'Security Theater' is for when you perform a bunch of actions to make people 'feel' safer without actually making them safer. We accuse airport security screening of being security theater because it is unlikely to be effective against a targeted attack, the very failure mode that the policies were instituted to prevent.

In this case, however, the intended targets are presumably crimes of opportunity, not exhaustively preplanned crimes. For these, the threat of "you're being watched, and if you do something, we'll see it" is probably sufficient. Also they provide low grade confrontation situations to be defused by someone pointing to the camera and saying "There's a camera monitoring this".

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#39

Post by csn »

Terr_ wrote: post #26

Another problem with "dummy cameras" for PUBLIC institutions is that they are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being funded and provided. What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency? P.S.: I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras, because they'l…

The way I see it, dummy cameras and real ones have exactly the same pre-crime effect: they both create a sense of security and add to the observed risk associated with committing a crime. With dummies you get really low cost (practically no maintenance) but lose the benefits if and when a crime actually happens. Still net positive, I think.

Like common locks, cameras only really prevent opportunistic crime. And for prevention, dummy is as good as the real deal as long as it's not widely known which is which.

Re: BART killing exposes security gap – many train cameras are decoys

#40

Post by r00fus »

Terr_ wrote: post #26

Another problem with "dummy cameras" for PUBLIC institutions is that they are basically lying to the taxpayer about what level of security is being funded and provided. What would you say about a municipality where half the circulating police-cars were secretly fakes "to deter crime", and which would not respond to any emergency? P.S.: I think as time goes people will be less-accepting of fake-cameras, because they'l…

Well there is a well known psychological principle that a watchful eye prevents crime..

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/putting-eyeballs-bi...

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