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Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

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Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#31

Post by Swizec »

blitzprog wrote: post #29
dsacco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

This is all true and I agree wholeheartedly.

And when The People incorrectly decide that based on data you raped a 15 year old, you will be in prison for the duration of the trial, you will be on the sex offender list forever, and you will be inconvenienced with anything requiring a background check. You, not The People.

Ideologically, I agree, privacy is a lame side-effect of how groups of people work. Pragmatically, please don't take it away.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#32

Post by SFjulie1 »

Wishing privacy on the internet is like wishing no turmoil while shagging during a massive religious events of paranoid gunned puritans.

If privacy is such a problem for some it is not a technological problem, it is a political problem. If so, people concerned should make their revolution in an appropriate place: the real world, and let internet stay a public media.

PS noticed another fun topic there are blacklisted keywords on HN, like F words. Isn't censorship more concerning than privacy on a media? And funnily enough all the "lite" censorship nowadays are first about sex and gross words. Are sex and slang that dangerous?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#33

Post by ericdykstra »

blitzprog wrote: post #29
dsacco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

> Who is the government? It's people. People like you and me. If people decide to make assumptions based on data they collected and the assumptions aren't correct it's their own fault for assuming something in the first place (because...you know...it's an assumption...it can be wrong).

What if the assumptions they make raise the premium on your health insurance because someone sells your data? People (or, more likely, algorithms) making wrong assumptions, even if it is their own fault, can affect you negatively.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#34

Post by spdustin »

blitzprog wrote: post #29
dsacco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

I believe it is a flaw of the human personality that makes us want to hide information and eventually lie about it.

Who said anything about lying being a part of a desire for privacy?

I don't care if Google or the government knows that I'm searching "[insert embarassing keywords for you here]

Would you care if a prospective insurer knows you're (hypothetically) searching for "atrial fibrillation management" or "opiate addiction"? Or a prospective employer who knows you're (hypothetically) searching for "corporate firewall security exploits"? Or a prospective romantic partner who knows you're (hypothetically) searching for "genital rash"? Any of those searches could be legitimately borne of pure, unadulterated curiosity, but taken out of that context by people with whom you're hoping to establish some kind of relationship, they could easily doom that relationship before it begins. Hell, those searches may not even be made by you but by someone in your household, but if decisions are made and opinions are formed based in that information, you've suffered an unnecessary loss.

Who is the government? It's people. People like you and me.

Indeed, people like you and me, except those people have the authority and/or power to incarcerate you, or impinge on your rights in other (less direct/more insidious) ways. Privacy isn't about hiding the truth from those who have a need to know it, it's about controlling the context of that truth, or at the very least, having a say in any response that comes from the truth being discovered.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#35

Post by blitzprog »

Swizec wrote: post #31
blitzprog wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

This is all true and I agree wholeheartedly. And when The People incorrectly decide that based on data you raped a 15 year old, you will be in prison for the duration of the trial, you will be on the sex offender list forever, and you will be inconvenienced with anything requiring a background check. You , not The People. Ideologically, I agree, privacy is a lame side-effect of how groups of people work. Pragmaticall…

I see your point. If society ends up believing in the fact that assumptions based on collected data have suddenly turned into "facts" then we will be truly...let me say it frankly...we are done for.

I believe when this happens Hacker News won't exist anymore because the intelligence of human beings will be comparable to that of a fly.

Luckily...this didn't happen yet because I can still have intellectual discussions, even on the internet.

I like your separation of "ideologically" and "pragmatically". I agree, it's not a pragmatical approach.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#37

Post by mutatismutandis »

blitzprog wrote: post #29
dsacco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

I understand that you believe that privacy is hiding the truth. It appears that you believe that the only reason someone would hide any information is because it only allows one to lie. Thus you conclude that since lying is bad, privacy is also bad because it promotes lying. If the above chain of reasoning is accurate, then let's do a thought experiment. What if you personally hold a belief that is contrary to public opinion, in fact, let's say it's a crime to believe this, but you still believe it? And for some reason you decided to make mention of it to someone and you are outed for holding a belief. Do you think that even though you disagree with society at large, you should be punished for that belief? Who is correct in this scenario? You? The people? ... privacy isn't just about lies, it's about being able to have space to have thoughts and develop concepts that may not be ready for public consumption. It's about freedom to think about concepts or beliefs without State retribution for not holding the party line. It's not about withholding truth. It's about being able to control the information that you personally generate without fear of judgement from external parties.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#38

Post by 9fQmdW9K »

blitzprog wrote: post #29
dsacco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your opinion is valid and should be fairly represented, but consider that your reasons for not caring about privacy may be flawed or inconsistent. Assuming that you don't care about privacy because you're apathetic, do you also not care about free speech because you don't say anything controversial? Do you care about your right to assembly even if you don't protest anything? As an extreme example upon which t…

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

Privacy is not deceit. Privacy is the right to be left alone.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#39

Post by executesorder66 »

blitzprog wrote: post #11

"This affects all of us. We must care." is not an effective way of convincing someone. I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. It's just my opinion. I know other people do but please don't generalize.

> I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should.

I'd love to know why you don't care.

1) Do you really not care if people watch everything you do? Would you live in a Big Brother type house where everything you do is recorded and shown to the public? That includes you showing, shitting, picking your nose, having sex, watching porn, every conversation you have etc.

And maybe you really don't give a fuck about that. I guess some people could stand naked in front of a crowd and shit themselves an not think twice about it.

But then on the other hand, there is one more thing to consider. What if the current government, or another one elected in the next 5 to 20 years is really evil? And let's say they are against the things you believe in, and they believe anyone who believes what you believe should suffer unimaginably? Or what if you like to complain about things? You post negative restaurant reviews Write angry letters in the newspaper, stuff like that. And this new government doesn't like complainers, because they don't want to be challenged. They could just look at all the stuff you have complained about in the past and decide you are too dangerous. So they arrest you (and your family, because why not?) and then they put you in a concentration camp. Where you and your family are worked to death. Starved to death. Beaten to death. Raped. Experimented on. Burned alive.

I know it's an extreme example, but things like this have happened before. Except now it's easier than ever for governments to round up the people they don't like, and to find out who the people they don't like are. And the less you care about privacy, the easier you make it for them.

Would you still say you don't care about privacy? Or do you just believe something like that would never happen, and so it's not important that we take steps to prevent a future government to do such things?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#40

Post by ghaff »

mutatismutandis wrote: post #37
blitzprog wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all thank you for respecting my opinion. I appreciate it. 1.) Free speech is a completely different topic. Snowden's quote on this page makes no sense to me no matter how often I re-read it. If free speech didn't exist I wouldn't be able to express my opinion about privacy :) 2.) Privacy means hiding the truth. Hiding what really happened. Hiding who you really are. I believe it is a flaw of the human person…

I understand that you believe that privacy is hiding the truth. It appears that you believe that the only reason someone would hide any information is because it only allows one to lie. Thus you conclude that since lying is bad, privacy is also bad because it promotes lying. If the above chain of reasoning is accurate, then let's do a thought experiment. What if you personally hold a belief that is contrary to public…

Dave Eggers' The Circle is perhaps worth reading in this context. I don't actually think it's a very good book and is mostly tolerable if it's read in the vein of a deliberately exaggerated "if this goes on" cautionary tale. But there are a number of speeches by one of the characters (Bailey?) in the vein of why radical transparency is good.
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