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The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

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Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#31

Post by grayfox »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
grayfox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

I think you guys will do great for junior folks (where a resume with little experience would be a hinderance traditionally) or perhaps people who are willing to jump through hoops to work from home, but I don't see it catching on (unfortunately?). > If you were to circumvent this, or feel you "shouldn't have to do this", what message does that send to the rest of the team? Does everyone on your team get paid the same…

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior".

You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants.

The process appeals to people who appreciate a fair and objective approach to hiring as it demonstrates how we value those traits. We "set the tone" early by giving everyone an open and honest shake at proving their abilities, without the awkwardness of dealing with a biased human filter.

I don't agree with the premise of your salary comparison.

The process is willing to pass on candidates and wish them well if they aren't willing to take a test -- again, if it would be so "beneath" their skill and experience, that's a spooky indicator of attitude.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#32

Post by toomuchtodo »

grayfox wrote: post #31
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you guys will do great for junior folks (where a resume with little experience would be a hinderance traditionally) or perhaps people who are willing to jump through hoops to work from home, but I don't see it catching on (unfortunately?). > If you were to circumvent this, or feel you "shouldn't have to do this", what message does that send to the rest of the team? Does everyone on your team get paid the same…

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

That's the best part though. We don't have to agree! And that's totally okay.

Are there companies that ask for work samples (like yours)? Yes. Are there companies that rely more on resumes and interviews? Yes. Is the ratio going to change substantially? Possibly! It's an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back.

I think interviews and references are far more important than a skills test. You can train or educate almost anyone on most, if not all, skills. You can't train people to be decent coworkers emotionally.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#33

Post by grayfox »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #32
grayfox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

That's the best part though. We don't have to agree! And that's totally okay. Are there companies that ask for work samples (like yours)? Yes. Are there companies that rely more on resumes and interviews? Yes. Is the ratio going to change substantially? Possibly! It's an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back. I think interviews and references are far more important than a…

> It's a an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back.

That, my friend, is the long and short of it.

Lookin' for a job? Got a work-sample you could try out... :)

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#34

Post by bitL »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #32
grayfox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

That's the best part though. We don't have to agree! And that's totally okay. Are there companies that ask for work samples (like yours)? Yes. Are there companies that rely more on resumes and interviews? Yes. Is the ratio going to change substantially? Possibly! It's an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back. I think interviews and references are far more important than a…

This is a great suggestion - perhaps the guys from Compose can come back in 2 years and tell us how it went?

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#35

Post by Bahamut »

grayfox wrote: post #31
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you guys will do great for junior folks (where a resume with little experience would be a hinderance traditionally) or perhaps people who are willing to jump through hoops to work from home, but I don't see it catching on (unfortunately?). > If you were to circumvent this, or feel you "shouldn't have to do this", what message does that send to the rest of the team? Does everyone on your team get paid the same…

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

Or it may be an indicator of the attitude/shortsightedness of the hiring company.

From the candidate perspective, one way to assess the viability of the hiring strategy is imagine if most, or a significant number, of companies doing this. This eats significantly into each candidate's time, and edges the job seeking dynamic in favor of the companies, and against the candidate since the candidate is forced to value the cost of opportunity searching versus doing something else. This also dramatically would increase the stress of a job search - I experienced it first hand over the course of last year when a good portion of companies wanted projects done, all which would have totalled maybe 100 hours of extra work on top of everything else normally associated with interviewing.

This is not a sustainable balance for job seekers - ultimately this acts against most job seekers' self-interest. I'm fine with doing project-based tests ability/attitude-wise but this reasoning is why I pass up on them.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#36

Post by [deleted] »

grayfox wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the best part though. We don't have to agree! And that's totally okay. Are there companies that ask for work samples (like yours)? Yes. Are there companies that rely more on resumes and interviews? Yes. Is the ratio going to change substantially? Possibly! It's an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back. I think interviews and references are far more important than a…

> It's a an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back. That, my friend, is the long and short of it. Lookin' for a job? Got a work-sample you could try out... :)

[deleted]

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#37

Post by avn2109 »

grayfox wrote: post #27
bitL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are telling us that if we had a PhD, multiple awards from previous companies for actual work and not politicking/backstabbing/brownnosing, Coursera/edX certificates relevant to your area of business with almost 100% success rate on their most difficult courses, can program in 50+ languages, you would still ignore our past success and we have to go through your normal hiring process? I am sure this would bring…

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

I think what the GP is asking is this: If Jeff Dean walks through your door tomorrow, are you going to try to make him jump through hoops? Obviously he's a better hacker than statistically ~everyone you've ever met, so it might be silly to not hire him immediately. Plus, it takes some chutzpah to intentionally waste 3 hours of his time.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#38

Post by RangerScience »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
grayfox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

I think you guys will do great for junior folks (where a resume with little experience would be a hinderance traditionally) or perhaps people who are willing to jump through hoops to work from home, but I don't see it catching on (unfortunately?). > If you were to circumvent this, or feel you "shouldn't have to do this", what message does that send to the rest of the team? Does everyone on your team get paid the same…

Are you paid to write hard code, or are you paid to solve a problem? If solving that problem involves things that aren't challenging or "up to your skill level", will you still do them?

I'm a software developer. But, a few weeks ago, the Most Important Thing for me to do was get some art made and printed onto foam-core. Traditionally, that is not my job, and it doesn't match my skillset, but it needed to be done and I was the person best positioned to do it.

This is definitely situation-dependent. I work for the services part of our organization, where it is more important that you do what is needed than what you enjoy or are good at. However, for the pure engineering part of our organization, I want to hire you to do the thing you're good at and I don't expect you to do anything else.

So it depends. Do I need you to be excellent at a rigid set of things, or do I need you to be excellent at seeing something through to completion, whatever that means?

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#39

Post by [deleted] »

bitL wrote: post #34
toomuchtodo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the best part though. We don't have to agree! And that's totally okay. Are there companies that ask for work samples (like yours)? Yes. Are there companies that rely more on resumes and interviews? Yes. Is the ratio going to change substantially? Possibly! It's an experiment, and like all experiments we're still waiting for the data to come back. I think interviews and references are far more important than a…

This is a great suggestion - perhaps the guys from Compose can come back in 2 years and tell us how it went?

[deleted]

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#40

Post by mrkurt »

Bahamut wrote: post #35
grayfox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

Or it may be an indicator of the attitude/shortsightedness of the hiring company. From the candidate perspective, one way to assess the viability of the hiring strategy is imagine if most, or a significant number, of companies doing this. This eats significantly into each candidate's time, and edges the job seeking dynamic in favor of the companies, and against the candidate since the candidate is forced to value the…

From first contact to hire, I think we're probably vastly more efficient with candidates' time than most companies. It's exceedingly rare to get as good of glimpse into what you'd be doing at a given job as you see from one of our sample projects. People who aren't great fits (either for desire or skill level reasons) can decide that very quickly. AND if they take it on, it's entirely on their own schedule, no coordination shenanigans.

From there, we do roughly what you'd do if you flew to a company for an interview (or drove, I guess). Rather than running someone through 3-5 different people, we organize it more as a full day project with the appropriate people around.

For most people, I suspect we spend more time pitching the value of the company than we do getting them to do work for us.

It's sustainable, provided companies act like us. :D We do a lot to explain what's going to happen, what we think makes people successful in our org, etc. My guess is most people who apply and make it through the process aren't out talking to 10-20 companies, they're specifically interested in companies like ours.

Based on feedback we've gotten from candidates, even people we passed on, the process is much more relaxing than what they're used to. We've had it called "more human", which is a little ridiculous, but based on how awful most hiring setups are it makes sense. Getting a job sucks and we really want our process to minimize the awfulness.

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