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‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

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Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#31

Post by Avshalom »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #29
imh wrote: post #26

Do we really have such poor social skills that candor and niceness are at odds? Really? I get that it can be a difficult goal to achieve both, but goddammit we're all adults here. We should all have developed those skills! Just because you're going to be frank doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it. This whole idea seems to justify people taking the easy way and putting nice and candid at opposite ends of a…

While I agree with everything you said, have you (speaking with candor) not been paying attention the past decade or so? A lawsuit-trigger-happy populace coupled with millienials entering the workplace has caused such collective scarring that institutions like academia and workplaces are reacting. We're now equating emotional distress with material injury, and it's having vile reverberations that won't be fully felt…

Because of course the concept of social etiquette was just recently invented this generation.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#32

Post by Avshalom »

CloudYeller wrote: post #30
codeonfire wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality managers do stuff like hide their opinions so people will stick around so they can burn them at review time. If someone quits too soon, the manager may have to burn someone they like. How did working get to be so dumb?

Work battles are kinda dumb, but in a way, they aren't dumb-- they're a much smarter and less-deadly form of primitive warfare. We're not perfect today, but ideas like enforcing openness+honesty in a safe environment will drive us even further away from the stone age mentality of physically harming someone who displeases you. Michael Jensen has been doing some research on the benefits of honesty-- you should check ou…

> I think he'd support the idea of calling out managers who hide their opinions from you.

I suspect even the managers would support that... until it's their turn in the barrel.

One of the problems with "treat others how you wish to be treated" is that a lot of people have very funny notions of both how they are treating people and how they would wish to be treated.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#33

Post by flogic »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #22
golemotron wrote: post #20

The clash between this and the culture of "trigger warnings" and "safe-spaces" that people are picking up in universities will be a thing to watch.

Aren't trigger warnings a bit daft? How on earth are you supposed to reasonably account for a universe of possible scenarios that might "trigger" someone. By the way I say this fully aware that I am privileged to not suffer from, well, whatever triggers actually do to people... ("Feel bad" is all I can figure)

In general people want trigger warnings for the more obvious things. So, content that delves deeply into abuse, assault and the like.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#34

Post by brandon272 »

slmyers wrote: post #16

Is being able to deliver blunt and direct criticism without being rude a unique or rare skill?

I think that being able to effectively deliver blunt and direct criticism is rare. There are a lot of moving parts that make up the delivery. (attitude, context, tone, language, relationship, setting) I see people screw it up all the time.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#35

Post by Dirlewanger »

Avshalom wrote: post #13

This is that thing where managers buy a book and pay some consultants to (further) justify being dicks to their subordinates isn't it?

Not surprised people step up to bat with the strawmen.

Speaking with candor != being a dick. People can supply direct and honest feedback without making it personal. Someone can criticize someone else's code until the cows come home, while also being excellent friends with them outside the workplace.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#36

Post by dragonwriter »

flogic wrote: post #33
dclowd9901 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't trigger warnings a bit daft? How on earth are you supposed to reasonably account for a universe of possible scenarios that might "trigger" someone. By the way I say this fully aware that I am privileged to not suffer from, well, whatever triggers actually do to people... ("Feel bad" is all I can figure)

In general people want trigger warnings for the more obvious things. So, content that delves deeply into abuse, assault and the like.

I don't think that there.is any evidence that "the more obvious things" are actually common triggers (on the PTSD sense); there common sources of offense to that works on a more conscious level, but AFAIK that's almost completely unrelated to the mechanisms involved in triggering, even when the subjects involved relate to the source of trauma; it seems more hijacking the very real idea of triggering related to traumatic experience as a means of asserting a privilege against offense.

Now, personalized trigger warnings in a context where particular individuals are known to be sensitive to particular things as triggers make a lot of sense, but AFAICT generalized trigger warnings have no valid basis in anything that has to do with actual triggering, and those pushing them trivialize real trauma-related conditions.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#37

Post by itgoon »

It seems to me that for some the problem isn't just that other people are blunt/assholes/etc.

It's that many people lack the skills necessary to deal with assholes.

I don't think trying to create conflict-free workplaces (as opposed to personal environments) is a good answer.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#38

Post by Avshalom »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #35
Avshalom wrote: post #13

This is that thing where managers buy a book and pay some consultants to (further) justify being dicks to their subordinates isn't it?

Not surprised people step up to bat with the strawmen. Speaking with candor != being a dick. People can supply direct and honest feedback without making it personal. Someone can criticize someone else's code until the cows come home, while also being excellent friends with them outside the workplace.

Of course people can. The question is whether they will.

The idea that people will use trend de jure to justify whatever bad behaviors they already exhibit while not putting any actual effort into self-improvement is, I feel, fairly uncontroversial.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#39

Post by apkostka »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #35
Avshalom wrote: post #13

This is that thing where managers buy a book and pay some consultants to (further) justify being dicks to their subordinates isn't it?

Not surprised people step up to bat with the strawmen. Speaking with candor != being a dick. People can supply direct and honest feedback without making it personal. Someone can criticize someone else's code until the cows come home, while also being excellent friends with them outside the workplace.

Of course, there's the flip side to this; you can offer constructive criticism to someone without being a dick and they can still take it personally. Some people just can't take any criticism.

Re: ‘Nice’ Is a Four-Letter Word at Companies Practicing Radical Candor

#40

Post by DanBC »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #22
golemotron wrote: post #20

The clash between this and the culture of "trigger warnings" and "safe-spaces" that people are picking up in universities will be a thing to watch.

Aren't trigger warnings a bit daft? How on earth are you supposed to reasonably account for a universe of possible scenarios that might "trigger" someone. By the way I say this fully aware that I am privileged to not suffer from, well, whatever triggers actually do to people... ("Feel bad" is all I can figure)

In theory trigger warnings are used rarely, to protect people currently suffering from PTSD. The aim is not to let those people avoid unpleasant situations, but to give them time to prepare and to get support for afterward.

In practice they're used far too often and at unsuitable times, and are used to avoid all discussion of difficult topics, so yes, they've now become a bit daft.

That's a shame, because it means that people who need them don't get them (and are mocked for asking for them); people who don't need them ask for them all the time on anything; and a bunch of vile hateful idiots spew their ignorant bile any time trigger warnings are mentioned.

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