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Why ads are a problem

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Re: Why ads are a problem

#31
post #5

Ahh yes. Another "ads are bad" post. People always seem to forget that most of the Internet is free BECAUSE of ads.

Most internet content is garbage designed to maximize ad revenue. If it went away nothing of value is lost. Magazines also are affordable because of ads. Most magazines are pure trash I would never read.

I don't get your point here. Nothing has taken away your choice on what to read. If you don't find it interesting, just move on. Value is inherently subjective - so a statement that "nothing of value is lost" does not mean much.

I certainly don't find celebrity gossip very valuable but the vast amount of people who read and consume that content shows that it is valuable to them. Who am I to judge that? There's nothing good to come of vastly reducing the amount of content out there. More choice and options are always a good thing.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#32

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

You could do indirect payments without ads. For example, say an organization gave grants to ad-free websites based on certain criteria. Some of these criteria could be how much people visit the site or how highly they rank it. Funding could come from people interested in keeping the web ad-free.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#33
post #30

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

Saying "it's just an implementation problem" understates the severity of that problem, and I think it's a little deceptive to claim that laws, regulations, and economic models are all "implementation" just as much as the raw code. I mean, would you say that dumping a type of toxic waste into a river is an "implementation" problem when there's no law against it? > It's fast. Except when ad-frameworks slow down browsin…

I believe you missed the statement where I said this is an implementation problem. I recently founded an adtech company to show how these issues can be fixed.

Ads are fast. Ad networks however are slow. Bad tech with old vendors is most of the problem. Our ads load faster than the content half the time. Sites like Washington Post, The Guardian, Ars Technica show how you can have a fast site with ads. Very solvable through technology.

Ads are definitely more anonymous than payments. Payments = credit cards or bank accounts. Guess what that means? Your name, address, age, credit history, employment, etc all perfectly accessible and tied to your identity. Profiling is used to give you more relevant ads. Someone who doesn't have children doesn't need to see diaper ads so it's a perfectly reasonable thing. I agree that sometimes it's taken too far with retargeting where you see the same ads constantly but this is a different matter. Our network focuses mostly on context of the page (tech site = tech ads) and performs just as well without any tracking (other than history of ads seen to avoid showing same ads).

The internet is a vector for malware. There absolutely is a way to vet content, but standards and enforcement is just not there right now. Ad networks dont really suffer anything when bad stuff happens so they have no incentive to do much about it. We don't even accept any 3rd party content on our network so we're far more secure than even the sites we run on.

Again, all of this is down to implementation - nothing wrong with the ad model itself.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "it's just an implementation problem" understates the severity of that problem, and I think it's a little deceptive to claim that laws, regulations, and economic models are all "implementation" just as much as the raw code. I mean, would you say that dumping a type of toxic waste into a river is an "implementation" problem when there's no law against it? > It's fast. Except when ad-frameworks slow down browsin…

I believe you missed the statement where I said this is an implementation problem. I recently founded an adtech company to show how these issues can be fixed. Ads are fast. Ad networks however are slow. Bad tech with old vendors is most of the problem. Our ads load faster than the content half the time. Sites like Washington Post, The Guardian, Ars Technica show how you can have a fast site with ads. Very solvable th…

> I believe you missed the statement

I believe you posted a reply while I was still making postscript-editing. A bad habit of mine, I know.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#35

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

> - It's secure. Again no need for payment information, there's not much ads can do. (Malware is a different problem.)

http://www.wired.com/insights/2014/11/malvertising-is-cyberc...

Advertising is an attack vector. A security risk for the end user.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#36
post #32

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

You could do indirect payments without ads. For example, say an organization gave grants to ad-free websites based on certain criteria. Some of these criteria could be how much people visit the site or how highly they rank it. Funding could come from people interested in keeping the web ad-free.

This is still direct via donations. Just by a few doing it for the many.

So the question is, who are these special few?

NYT times costs hundreds of millions to run. That's just a single publisher. Most major sites require somewhere in the 8 figures. As theory and data have shown, human behavior is not conducive to paying if you can avoid it. Unless your plan is to turn content publishers into tax-funded state-run companies, I fail to see how this could possibly work.

* Before it's mentioned: Wikipedia is perhaps the only example of donations working at scale. However, it's not really working because Wikipedia doesn't produce any content. It's also not a business. Wikimedia which is an actual business runs the wikia.com network of sites and they're all monetized through ads.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you missed the statement where I said this is an implementation problem. I recently founded an adtech company to show how these issues can be fixed. Ads are fast. Ad networks however are slow. Bad tech with old vendors is most of the problem. Our ads load faster than the content half the time. Sites like Washington Post, The Guardian, Ars Technica show how you can have a fast site with ads. Very solvable th…

> I believe you missed the statement I believe you posted a reply while I was still making postscript-editing. A bad habit of mine, I know.

Got it. So with your edit:

> I mean, would you say that dumping a type of toxic waste into a river is an "implementation" problem when there's no law against it?

Yes. This doesn't mean we stop doing anything that produces toxic waste. Cars are also a vector for criminal activity. Like guns and knives and cellphones. We don't get rid of them either. Instead we use regulation and standards to enforce the safety mechanisms and proper ethical behavior.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do indirect payments without ads. For example, say an organization gave grants to ad-free websites based on certain criteria. Some of these criteria could be how much people visit the site or how highly they rank it. Funding could come from people interested in keeping the web ad-free.

This is still direct via donations. Just by a few doing it for the many. So the question is, who are these special few? NYT times costs hundreds of millions to run. That's just a single publisher. Most major sites require somewhere in the 8 figures. As theory and data have shown, human behavior is not conducive to paying if you can avoid it. Unless your plan is to turn content publishers into tax-funded state-run com…

If enough people care about an ad-free web, it wouldn't have to be a special few: it could be a relatively large group of passionate people.

But that's just one idea. The point is that it's not a dichotomy of low-friction, indirect ads versus high-friction, direct payment. There may be other options.

Re: Why ads are a problem

#39

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

Adding to what Terr_ already pointed out:

> It's efficient

Money may not be changing hands, but a lot of information is, which is easily worth more. Leaving out these costs are yet another reason why advertisers have a reputation for dishonesty.

Also, the article specifically discussed the terrible power efficency that is always going to be associated with the extra transfer and processing associated with fetching ads. Or do you think they get to violate conservation on energy to be downloaded? If you are adding ad to a page, you are making the client pay more to see it. Offloading costs like this - while pretending it is efficient - should really be criminal.

> It's passive

Bullshit, and you know it.

The very idea of advertising is to be distracting. The arms-race we've seen over the last few decades where advertising went from simple banners, to popups, to various other dynamic rendering tricks, to the modern modal/click-through video ads - and worse - are all about not being passive. This is suck a basic concept in advertising that I have to conclude you are dissembling deliberately, or are such a "true believer" in advertising you cannot see it any other way.

Also, it takes an incredible amount of energy to ignore ads. Anybody that thinks ads don't cost any mental energy is either lying or addicted. Install an adblocker and use it 100% reliably for several months to break the addiction, and you will be shocked at the energy advertising wastes when you see it again.

> It's accessible

Except if someone is poor, they cannot afford whatever it is you are advertising. I've seen this meme a lot recently, so it's obviously a talking point the advertising indujstry is using to try to justify their drain on society. You're not fooling anybody, and this kind of appeal only makes advertisers look desperate.

--

While Terr_ already mentioned this one...

> It's secure.

You don't get to exclude malware, when advertising is the vector.

Even ignoring that, leaking tracking information makes you malware!

Re: Why ads are a problem

#40

This is a rather shallow article with barely any real points. Talking about all those externalities only serves to create noise rather than support any arguments against the ad model. You can just as easily argue that images and CSS should be removed to save even more bandwidth and processing power. Why even go online at all actually when you can get a newspaper for a few cents? Here's the reality - We only have 2 op…

> - It's secure. Again no need for payment information, there's not much ads can do. (Malware is a different problem.) http://www.wired.com/insights/2014/11/malvertising-is-cyberc... Advertising is an attack vector. A security risk for the end user.

The entire internet is an attack vector. Malware has existed for a long time in numerous forms, ad networks are just another possibility but so are websites themselves, downloadable software, mobile apps, etc.

As mentioned in another comment - We also have cars and cellphones that can be used by criminals. That doesn't mean modern transportation and communication has a problem, it means that criminals will be criminals and we need better ways of dealing with them. As far as I can see, that's an implementation problem.

Here's the truth: I've been in the ad industry for a long time and there is literally 0 enforcement of anything. Lots of fraud and shady practices but no regulation and nobody to answer to. If you do get caught, change the name of the company and try again. I can guarantee that if we actually send people to jail for not vetting malware or running illegal or shady ads, this problem will pretty much go away immediately.

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