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The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#31

Post by silentplummet »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #11
woah wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. The surveillance state does not follow laws, and it has all the dirt it could ever want on politicians. Laws are not a solution here. The first rule of security is "don't trust the network". Computer scientists and developers who build systems that require users to trust the network are uniquely culpable. This is an unpopular opinion here because many of us would like to continue collecting hefty paychecks whi…

You're way off. The people and politicians knew to get a grip on this decades ago when they discovered all the abuses of CIA, etc. They had two main choices: 1. Create accountability mechanisms a la GAO working alongside these organizations ensuring they follow the law and imprison offenders. 2. Create a court that approves most of what they do, never imprisons offenders, and operates in secret. America went with No…

>American's apathy and frankly ignorance is what gave scumbags a series of blank checks with immunity. Americans didn't do anything learning about Iraq WMD's, 2008 frauds, Snowden leaks, and so on. Largely nothing but griping.

Hold on, I think you're giving the average American way too much credit here. My mom has at various times said that the police state is a good thing, the FBI should be able to view anybody's data for any reason, and groups the state names as terrorists should be denied freedom of speech.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#32

Post by nickpsecurity »

maxerickson wrote: post #24
nickpsecurity wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technique used for No 3 is here and other documents suggest they work with many agencies rather than just DEA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-van-buren/parallel-const... Number 4 we're not going to get examples of: TAO & TAREX operate in a bubble. There are two known efforts to do this sort of thing but tactics are unknown. One is BULLRUN: http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/17577/intelligence/nsa-b... Addit…

Specific examples are more interesting than raising the specter. You've doubled down on raising the specter.

Think I could've done better? Just file some FOIA requests and lawsuits on the subject requesting all specific examples of cooperation between NSA and other LEO's plus list of all TAO and BULLRUN activities against Americans. Bet you'll have less than I posted.

Btw, a manual for DEA of using NSA's evidence isn't a specter: means it's ongoing.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#33

Post by dang »

tptacek wrote: post #25

Whoah: this title sucks all the oxygen out of what is a very interesting article centering on an interview with Phil Rogaway, one of the world's great cryptographers. The title should instead be the one The Atlantic chose, which closely mirrors Rogaway's recent paper: "The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists". Submitters to HN are meant to use the original title from the article where possible, unless that title is…

Sorry, our mistake. Fixed.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#34

Post by nickpsecurity »

silentplummet wrote: post #31
nickpsecurity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're way off. The people and politicians knew to get a grip on this decades ago when they discovered all the abuses of CIA, etc. They had two main choices: 1. Create accountability mechanisms a la GAO working alongside these organizations ensuring they follow the law and imprison offenders. 2. Create a court that approves most of what they do, never imprisons offenders, and operates in secret. America went with No…

>American's apathy and frankly ignorance is what gave scumbags a series of blank checks with immunity. Americans didn't do anything learning about Iraq WMD's, 2008 frauds, Snowden leaks, and so on. Largely nothing but griping. Hold on, I think you're giving the average American way too much credit here. My mom has at various times said that the police state is a good thing, the FBI should be able to view anybody's da…

Yeah, there are plenty of those... an even bigger problem.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#35

Post by nickpsecurity »

tptacek wrote: post #27
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal aspect was taken care of by the Bill of Rights. The govt is trying to erode them and so now we need to "fight" against it.

I'm not with 'nickpsecurity on this issue, but what you just said is not a valid argument. Cryptography enables individuals to override the interests of any element of the state, no matter how compelling those interests are. Any way you read the Fourth Amendment, even the wrong way that implies that the government requires a warrant for any conceivable search, there remains a pathway through which the state can compe…

My position is that possession and use of cryptography won't protect individuals against government's illegitimate actions if citizens let that governments rogue agencies continually amass more power, surveillance, and control over IT.

If you're against that position, please tell me why crypto alone (not active democracy) is all one needs to be safe against state abuse in a surveillance state that targets crypto users. I'm sure any activists aiding Chinese and North Korean dissidents will appreciate your tips, too. They, like I, have been under the same delusion that TLA's legal power matters and must be dealt with.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#36

Post by api »

adrtessier wrote: post #13

Yes, cryptographers should take on the surveillance state. So should developers, and entrepreneurs, and politicians, and the common citizen that thinks AES is some foreign sports conference or IND-CCA is a new trade agreement. I'm growing tired of watching journos try to point the fingers of "encryption is good, says cryptographers" and "encryption is bad, says this guy in a federal law enforcement position" and comp…

It's hard to take on the surveillance state when you have to make a living and all the money and jobs are in surveillance and surveillance based business models.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#37

Post by Ar-Curunir »

r-w wrote: post #3

I wish this article were more particular about what cryptologists are doing wrong? What exactly could they have done instead? Without that info, it just seems like pointing a finger at cryptologists and saying, “This is your job! Do something!”

Modern academic cryptographers have veered off into a land of purely theoretical constructs. Now I love the cool theory we have in crypto, but it's sad that despite all this cool theory, very little of it becomes applicable in building practical privacy-preserving systems.

Rogaway, is a famed academic cryptographer, student of Silvio Micali, who basically founded modern academic cryptography. He is highly respected within the crypto community, so his words hold a lot of weight, and my interactions with crypto professors indicates that they agree with what he says.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#38

Post by maxerickson »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #32
maxerickson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specific examples are more interesting than raising the specter. You've doubled down on raising the specter.

Think I could've done better? Just file some FOIA requests and lawsuits on the subject requesting all specific examples of cooperation between NSA and other LEO's plus list of all TAO and BULLRUN activities against Americans. Bet you'll have less than I posted. Btw, a manual for DEA of using NSA's evidence isn't a specter: means it's ongoing.

Ongoing retaliation against people working on crypto?

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#39

Post by ethbro »

waqf wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not a fair criticism. This is reporting about an extremely famous cryptographer pointing his finger at other cryptographers. Here's more about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10657540

Thanks for that pointer. I agree with GP's criticism, though, at least the way the article is written. I was trying to understand it through the lens of the nuclear analogy and failing drastically, because whereas those scientists were developing PRO-nuclear technology, these ones are (a priori, to first order) developing ANTI-surveillance technology.

The nuclear analogy is a little odd, given that one of the reasons we don't have even more nuclear weapons / more states with nuclear weapons / nuclear weapons out in the wild is not technological... but because of international treaties and enforcement.

Re: The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists

#40

Post by tptacek »

dang wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #25

Whoah: this title sucks all the oxygen out of what is a very interesting article centering on an interview with Phil Rogaway, one of the world's great cryptographers. The title should instead be the one The Atlantic chose, which closely mirrors Rogaway's recent paper: "The Moral Failure of Computer Scientists". Submitters to HN are meant to use the original title from the article where possible, unless that title is…

Sorry, our mistake. Fixed.

J'ACCUSE! Please, sir, read the HN guidelines, which I've helpfully linked here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please don't editorialize titles. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that.

We've asked you this before!

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