Relevant: http://news.yahoo.com/china-tells-dalai-lama-again-respect-r...
For who can't open the link it basically says: "China tells Dalai Lama again to respect reincarnation, but the next Dalai Lama has to be born in China"
The Last Dalai Lama?
31–40 of 82 posts
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years Invented by white folks? What? Did you perhaps mean they made it mainstream for white people by giving it a western flavor?
No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…
Do you have any idea of the size of the conspiracy that would be necessary to pull this off.
Here are three things you need to explain just for starters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Arun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#33The Chinese stance on Dalai Lama is kind of weird: They kind of recognise him, he is free to travel, nontheless they pressure other people to not see him. Seems like they can't explain what they're trying to do to themself.
Rumors say that Dalai Lama has been bargaining with Beijing for his returning home, but has not reached a deal yet, apparently.
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…
Do you have any idea of the size of the conspiracy that would be necessary to pull this off. Here are three things you need to explain just for starters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Arun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West
Well considering the argument is that what is practiced today as Buddhism is a small subset of what was believed/practiced previously, you would in fact expect all that stuff to exist...
And the fact Borobudur was only excavated in the mid 1800s and wasn't reconstructed until recently isn't exactly evidence that it was still considered an important part of the religion before then.
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#35"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program
The whole history of Tibet and the Sino-Tibetan war is quite interesting. Of course, its not in the interest of the 'free Tibet' crowd to actually learn that Tibet was a feudal kingdom with a history of warfare (more Dalai Lamas were murdered than died from natural causes), and that the Lamas were highly oppressive of the serfs...
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would it help you if it were "Free Hawai'i"? That timeline is comparable. Your last statement confuses me. What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet, which is a tribe seeking a political state. Tibetan Buddhism is a sect of Buddhism practiced beyond Tibetan borders. Much like a great many Shia Muslims live in Iran, but we would not confound Iranian…
>What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet The Dalai Lama is considered by religious Tibetans to be the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the Tibetan Buddhist deity that personifies compassion. So your question makes about as much sense as asking what Jesus has to do with Christianity.
Yes, but the point is that Tibetan Buddhism is a small subset of Buddhism. It's also the furthest from 'orthodox' Buddhism. And within that division, the Dalai Lama's specific sect is yet again another division.
The Dalai Lama is to Buddhism what, say, the Archbishop of Canterbury is (possibly of even lesser historical importance) to Christianity. His only real importance came about as a result of clever marketing of the Tibetan 'cause'.
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…
Would it help you if it were "Free Hawai'i"? That timeline is comparable. Your last statement confuses me. What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet, which is a tribe seeking a political state. Tibetan Buddhism is a sect of Buddhism practiced beyond Tibetan borders. Much like a great many Shia Muslims live in Iran, but we would not confound Iranian…
"The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet, which is a tribe seeking a political state."
The Dalai Lama has abdicated political leadership to the Tibetan Parliament in Exile and only retains a leadership role as head of the Gelugpa sect. He still speaks to the human rights abuses and political oppression of Tibetans but his proposal is a "Middle Way" which would preserve Chinese rule but give Tibetans some autonomy and representation in governing Tibet.
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People are genuinely interested in Buddhism because it looks elegant and less stained than other major religions. Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years and designed to appeal to those with scientific mindset. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's a little propagandistic not to acknowledge it.
> Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years This is astonishing. Can you let us know which buddhist principles were invented by white folks (and by whom) in the past 150 years.
> Can you let us know which buddhist principles were invented by white folks (and by whom) in the past 150 years.
I don't know to what extent individual principles or beliefs were created. Rather, the argument is that the religion as a whole was created by removing the parts that didn't fit the narrative. Think of it like the Jefferson Bible, but if pretty much the entire living tradition of Christianity was also removed from the religion instead of just redacting and rearranging the text.
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism". As in, are you dramatically misinterpreting your source document, or are you trying to say that the "Western Buddhism" we experience is not "Real Buddhism"? from the article: "There was a problem. Buddhism, as actually found in Asia, was much more like the European idea of “paganism” than a “great world religion.”" The site relates to curren…
> I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism". This article doesn't have anything to do with Western Buddhism. It's about how what people currently believe/practice as Buddhism in Asia comes from the west. The point is that before 150 years ago there was no core set of ideas that could really be distilled into what we think of as Buddhism today. Rather there were just different peoples…
That's just really not true based on modern research. That's a fringe theory at best, that might be applicable to something like "Mainstream Buddhism". (e.g. what you see in a yoga magazine in the grocery store)
There's quite an established corpus of Tibetan texts and monastic curriculum that has existed for the past 1000 or so years (depending on the tradition) that involve primary sources (Sanskrit Indian texts dating from 100 AD or so onwards) and developed commentary in Tibetan. It's of primary importance for every Monastery / center to have a full set of Kangyur (sutra) and Tengyur (tantra), with many of the most revered and most studied texts coming from 1300 AD or so in Ancient Tibetan, and as far back as 100 AD (Sanskrit and Tibetan translations of Sanskrit).
There is meticulous textual preservation practiced at all major Tibetan monasteries, and many have preserved texts throughout the Cultural revolution that have been confirmed by other discoveries of identical copies and translations in China, India, Ceylon, and Southeast Asia.
That's an extremely odd theory, as well, because Tibetan literally has two different forms: Modern and Ancient, and texts can be dated by their use of language, similar to Modern and Ancient Chinese, and anyone who denies that is basically equivalent of thinking fossils were buried by the Jews or the earth is 5000 years old or something equally non-factual.
It's certainly reasonable to say that there are "Buddhisms"--there were many different interpretations of primary sources in different Asian regions that continued to develop independently of each other (and merged with local custom or ritual), but it's somewhat ludicrous to say that there was "no core set of ideas" that was being actively practiced in Asia 150 years ago within specific traditions, or that what is currently practiced in Asia is "Western" at its core. You can even make a strong argument that there are a few core principles that are consistent across all branches of "Buddhism" that have little to do with Western ideas or Western religion, namely lack of self, and the composed nature of all phenomena, which have their roots in the very earliest texts, with constant development and reinforcement from ~100AD forward.
source: Master's in Religious Studies, specifically Tibetan Buddhism
Re: The Last Dalai Lama?
#40Western meddling in Sino-Tibetan affairs by the US government is understandable and is just international politics. But meddling by so-called 'anti-establishment' celebrities is the height of irony. The equivalent of Russell Brandt yelling "Free Tibet" at Glastonbury would be Al Wei Wei (famous Chinese social activist / artist) holding a concert in Shenzhen with proceeds going to some Singapore-based non-profit calle…
You do realize that Ai Wei Wei actually had a significant exhibit on Alcatraz, where there were significant Native American protests, right? http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-ai-weiwei-bre...
It was a pretty fucking awesome exhibit, too. Glad I got a chance to see it when I was over there.