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Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

english.people.com.cn

31–40 of 47 posts

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#31

Bottom line - Baidu outclassed them and they needed to find a way to get out without losing face or having to explain why they were in second place in the largest internet market in the world. Every other US company has been able to survive except whiny little Google: "Boo hoo, they stole my IP"! Tell that to GE, who are doing just fine in China, thank you very much, IP or no IP. Google should grow some *alls, stand…

Right.

Going from 0% market share to >30% in a couple of years is losing. Google was gaining. They had their most profitable quarter in China this last quarter.

If by outclassed you mean being the best search engine for finding pirated software and music, I guess you have a point.

But yeah, keep spinning it :)

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#32

Bottom line - Baidu outclassed them and they needed to find a way to get out without losing face or having to explain why they were in second place in the largest internet market in the world. Every other US company has been able to survive except whiny little Google: "Boo hoo, they stole my IP"! Tell that to GE, who are doing just fine in China, thank you very much, IP or no IP. Google should grow some *alls, stand…

Typical Chinese train of thought - from one Chinese guy to another, drop the macho hyper-aggressive posturing, it's not sexy, and the chicks don't dig it.

I did find one point interesting though, and I'm assuming you're a young, internet-savvy Chinese guy:

> "Every other US company has been able to survive except whiny little Google"

Does this include the myriad of US websites that have been blatantly ripped off by Chinese domestic companies? I'm assuming you're a user of Xiaonei (an almost verbatim clone of Facebook, including UI and page design, even color scheme) - can you defend the blatantly unoriginal, downright thieving tactics of Chinese tech companies when it comes to "competing" with their American counterparts? Perhaps this Chinese "outclassing" of yours is simply because many Chinese companies never put in the resources to develop anything of their own, preferring to steal and pilfer instead.

Perhaps Google is leaving because, as every other nation (not only the West) knows, the Chinese as a whole have fundamentally no respect for hard work. As a Chinese I am ashamed to admit this, but the truth deserves to be told regardless of how it reflects on my people: Chinese culture has no respect for the work of others, and ripping off is so normal that one hardly bats an eyelash. Whatever Google does in China will merely be copied verbatim, there's almost no point in staying in a market where all of your hard work counts for just about nothing, and there's no rule of law to protect this work from unscrupulous thieves.

[edit] Also, the only reason GE is "doing fine" is because nobody's yet figured out how to clone entire power plants. Look at companies like Apple, who originally had to import iPhone screens from Germany to avoid having the designs stolen and sold to the highest bidder by merely manufacturing it in China. This is embarrassing and shameful to me as a Chinese - we are rightfully known as a nation that cannot be trusted, cannot be respectful of what is rightfully someone else's. We are known globally as a nation of unscrupulous people who will throw away all semblance of civility and justice to succeed - I am ashamed to be associated with this, but yet it does reflect our business culture very accurately.

Instead of constantly looking at every move like a threat against China, and instead of looking at everyone like an enemy, perhaps China's greatest enemy is itself: we are overly aggressive, we always seek to win by someone else's destruction, and we seem incapable of forming transactions where one side doesn't get screwed. We are not team players, and this is going to be a very severe limitation on the advancement of China as a whole until we culturally un-fuck ourselves. Drop the constant victim complex - not everyone is out to get you.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#33
post #24
post #5

"The Chinese society has generally less information bearing capacity than developed countries such as the U.S., which is an objective reality that no one can deny." The concept of societal "information bearing capacity" blows my mind. What a fascinating and bizarre rationalization. So inside that mindset, preventing access to information is a a public service!

Chinese here. This kind of BS derives from a more common theory: Chinese people don't deserve democracy because they are not well educated. It's stated on many official newspapers and comments. TFA is just a little elaboration. You can find even funnier nonsense everyday everywhere from Chinese politics news. The CCP behavior is hilarious to watch, Internet users in China loving posting pre-1949 propaganda from CCP,…

The saddest part is I know many Chinese in my age group who would cheer this article on, and commend the author for having the courage to stand up to American imperialism.

I think many of us expected popular support for the Communist regime to drop over time - but we're seeing the opposite, and that's gravely concerning.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#34

This article equates censorship to surveillance. I don't want to say one is worse than the other, but it's kind of apples and oranges, and makes her argument about the US irrelevant - not to mention that she either wasn't aware or was ignoring the fact that GOOG is leaving because partly it is sick of being the target of gov't intel efforts.

Censorship isn't possible without surveillance, at the very least someone caring enough to act to censor when they observe something, and the only reason for surveillance is to control actions, which is censorship. Of course, these can be used for "good", surveillance like security cameras that document who approaches your house, and censorship like parents controlling what their kids watch on television, but I'm not…

I see at more as akin to

> Asking for permission

versus

> Asking for forgiveness rather than permission

With censorship you are prevented from obtaining information, with surveillance you (might) be punished for obtaining information afterwards. If the only reason for surveillance is to control actions (which is censorship), then do you define all law enforcement as censorship? We're kind of digressing, but my point was that it's ridiculous to assert that surveillance of US international calls is worse than not allowing your entire country to surf wikipedia...

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#35
post #23
post #6

I noticed that no where in the article is there any mention of the actual reason that Google came out with this announcement (i.e. they were (cyber) attacked by sources that were presumably linked with the Chinese government). It seems to only be talking about censorship and comparing China to other Western countries.

Google didn't explicitly say this is the reason. They talked about censorship and doing business in China.

I don't think they needed to say it. Everyone knew who they were talking about.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn't explicitly say this is the reason. They talked about censorship and doing business in China.

I don't think they needed to say it. Everyone knew who they were talking about.

Perhaps, but you can't blame "The Chinese" responding to what they said at face value.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#37
post #21

Ok. A devil's advocate question. If US government can monitor US citizen's emails, why shouldn't Chinese govt monitor the emails of Chinese citizens? Of course, there is difference in what the monitoring will lead to in the 2 cases, but the ability to monitor is what it is. right?

> why shouldn't Chinese govt monitor the emails of Chinese citizens? At least the US had a freaking law about the action. The prc government on the other hand, plays trinity in market: rule maker, judge, and player. There's a joke on twitter, the government rape you, then sue you for prostitution

> At least the US had a freaking law about the action

Not on wire tapping, they made a law afterward though to forgive everyone.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#38
post #2

I suggest we take news from People's Daily - the official list of Communist Party of China - with a grain of salt.

It's interesting to read their spin.

Unless you consider about the fact they've totally ignored the gmail hacking incident and the various espionage activities.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#39
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese here. This kind of BS derives from a more common theory: Chinese people don't deserve democracy because they are not well educated. It's stated on many official newspapers and comments. TFA is just a little elaboration. You can find even funnier nonsense everyday everywhere from Chinese politics news. The CCP behavior is hilarious to watch, Internet users in China loving posting pre-1949 propaganda from CCP,…

The saddest part is I know many Chinese in my age group who would cheer this article on, and commend the author for having the courage to stand up to American imperialism. I think many of us expected popular support for the Communist regime to drop over time - but we're seeing the opposite, and that's gravely concerning.

Same here. Oddly it seems the older generation was much more flexible in their thinking.

What's interesting is how agile the CCP has become. We call it 'communist' but it no longer resembles any of the Marxist ideals we usually associate with it. They react quickly and have been using capitalism/modernization/nation-building as a very effective carrot. This isn't the old stagnant hard-line Soviet communism by any measure.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#40
I live in china. I have lived here for 11 years. I am western. I have friends who are in Shanghai and Beijing they are fully Chinese and either own companies or are judges or (sometimes) criminals. At no time and in now way have these people been shy about criticizing the government or swearing at the traffic jams created by state visits etc. At no time have I seen or experienced censorship. In many drunken evenings or in business meetings any and all topics are discussed openly. There are rules however, yes, the government needs to be involved in things. Yes it can act in unusual ways - for example banning online games. (seemingly because one high level official did not like the amount of time their son was spending on WoW.) Yes minorities are persecuted and yes they shoot criminals. It's is a long way from perfect. But... 1.3 billion people. There are 12 cities in china with a pop of more than 5 million (in the city local area) . These cities have highly complex local governments which do not always follow the central government. China is a lot less one country than it seems and it is certainly not policed or controlled with any obvious force. In many ways it is also free. Sometime more free than other places.. this may sound weird but Hong Kong is again the freest place to do business in the World. It is many regions, many languages and cultures. As in the US, the government is distinct from the people. And the government has a hard job keeping it together. The only thing I agree with in the article is that going the Russian way would be bad for China. As for Google... as always the real story is probably much different from the one told by either side. But i am more inclined to believe it is something silly rather than serious.
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