Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#31

Post by rdancer » Mon, Nov 16, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #29

rdancer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just declare the rulers apostate , and poof, no government. Same trick the medieval European rulers would use to get rid of their rivals, by the way (they had to convince the Pope). If their daily practice agrees with the Scriptures, and by all accounts, they are very uncompromising, it is very hard to argue that they're somehow not legitimate.

> They just declare the rulers apostate, and poof, no government. Islamically, this does not hold either (and we have authentic narrations to back this up). In order to declare the leader an apostate (a very serious accusation by the way), there has to be extremely clear evidence upon which there is zero room for interpretation or excusing. I'm talking about something along the lines of the ruler outright coming out…

I understand what you're saying, however, for the ISIS project to work, it is not necessary that all Muslims agree with them. In fact, ISIS are more than happy to genocide all Muslims who disagree, notably all the Sunni Muslims, and have steadfastly been doing so in the lands they have conquered.

Might is right, and as long as the Caliphate keeps on existing, they will do what they're doing, simply because they can. Your theological objections cannot be taken seriously because they're a state power, you're not, and quite naturally conflicts where one side of the argument is a state, are best settled by war.

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#32

Post by azth » Mon, Nov 16, 2015, 7:51 PM UTC

rdancer wrote: post #31

azth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just declare the rulers apostate, and poof, no government. Islamically, this does not hold either (and we have authentic narrations to back this up). In order to declare the leader an apostate (a very serious accusation by the way), there has to be extremely clear evidence upon which there is zero room for interpretation or excusing. I'm talking about something along the lines of the ruler outright coming out…

I understand what you're saying, however, for the ISIS project to work, it is not necessary that all Muslims agree with them. In fact, ISIS are more than happy to genocide all Muslims who disagree, notably all the Sunni Muslims, and have steadfastly been doing so in the lands they have conquered. Might is right, and as long as the Caliphate keeps on existing, they will do what they're doing, simply because they can.…

> however, for the ISIS project to work, it is not necessary that all Muslims agree with them.

Perhaps, but how far will they get? There are Muslim nations that are fighting ISIS, both in military and in talking about their corrupt ideology and explaining how they have gone astray. For example (if you speak Arabic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb2yAczRc5g

> Your theological objections cannot be taken seriously because they're a state power

While ISIS may not take what I mentioned seriously, the goal is to educate people (especially the emotional and easily charged youth) into showing how misguided ISIS are, and answer their questions in an attempt to prevent the corrupt ISIS message from influencing them.

> where one side of the argument is a state

Just because they call themselves a state does not mean they are :)

> are best settled by war.

We try to educate first and bring truce, but yes, sometimes fighting is unfortunately necessary: http://quran.com/49/9

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#33

Post by ch » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #9

ch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like he is implying that something like Da'esh will exist no matter if Islam exists or not. Their brand of violence is not rooted in ideological beliefs but rather psycopathic killing for killings sake. That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. The other issues of famine, fear and a power vaccume are more likely the reason they can last for so long. Group…

> That Islam allows a way for them to recruit does not mean they are Islamic only opportunistic. Simply wrong. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism The ideology existed longer than the specific group called ISIS. They just dialed it to 10 what was always more and more cooking for the last few decades. That they are a bit more extreme than how Al-Quaeda is perceived in the West now doesn't mean that the exact…

Interesting.

I would still contend that one cannot take some form of ideology, "dial it up to 10" and then claim it is still that same ideology. What you instead have here is a set of liars that hide behind a name.

That said, it does seem that Wahhabism and Sunni Islam are perhaps a more favorable place for such extremism to culture and grow. So I concede this is as much a part of Islam as the next part (however non-mainstream or mainstream it may be).

Clearly the shift here is what allows such extremism to succeed, the funding, the teaching, the dispersion of such ideas, how are they not called out for what they are: callous and inhumane and insane?

Who is responsible for turning a blind eye for so long? Is it just tolerated because it happens 'Over There' (in this case I suppose 'Over There' would mean 'Not Here in Saudi Arabia' where the political base of this brach of Islam claims home). Or is this more like someones thugs getting out of control -- i.e. this is a sponsored movement and attempts to restrain it are actively interfered with!

I have more questions than answers! What a complex part of the world!

Re: Yonatan Zunger about the Paris Attacks

#34

Post by sharpray » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

tomjakubowski wrote: post #16

gayprogrammer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants from Mexico don't follow a religion that instructs them to kill.

Read the Old Testament lately?

Ever read the Talmud? The best of the gentiles should be killed according to that book. See how silly your argument is?