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Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

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Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#31
post #24

Just so people are clear -- Even if you are not using Facebook, even if none of your friends ever use Facebok or tag you in any content, Facebook is maintaining a shadow profile on you. They have your web browsing habits from the Like button, and in many countries (such as the United States) they have bought data from data brokers such as Datalogix to gain access to your grocery store purchases and other data. They c…

You had me right up until the Bangladesh jab. Yes, it turns out that those Bangladeshi girls really do need the jobs:

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/12/03/247360855/two-s...

The whole series on the making of tshirts is amazing: http://www.npr.org/shirt

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#32

How about we learn to deal with the fact that they're not storing data that is yours in the sense of ownership, but only in the sense that it's about you? They're not storing data for no reason; They are storing data their customers have provided for the purposes of contacting you. They are storing data about you for the people who, like it or not, you shared your data with. The nasty 90s database-dump sharing is ove…

just to add to your point, even before global internet coverage, information ownership was murky.

range, permanence and ease of distribution are much diferent but, take for example, a picture.

if 2 people are in a picture taken by a third party, to what extent can any person excert ownership over that "data".

the photographer, or either of the subjects. I am all for privacy, but I would find it hard to make a compelling case for the above scenario that could be absolute, and applied uniformly.

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#33

>Facebook faces a fine of 250,000 euros ($269,000) a day Facebook's net income in 2014 was US$2.94 billion, according to Wikipedia. I'm not so sure they will care about a fine that low. Especially if they expect to make more money by continuing to store non-users' personal data.

Do you think that data is worth 91M euros/98M USD a year? I don't, and I doubt Facebook (or its investors) do either. That's a strong opening salvo.

That's a strong opening salvo.

And so far it's only from one nation. Much of Europe shares a stronger belief in things like privacy and data protection than the US, and much of Europe has law in place to defend such things if the political will is there. Facebook can't afford to face fines at significant multiples of that scale, and even if it could, it's just asking for more severe action if it tries to force the issue.

The nightmare scenario for FB is probably losing access to parts of Europe for a while and as a result losing their critical mass of users so a rival social network can gain a foothold. With the digital native generation already far less attached to any one social network than their predecessors, that could become an existential threat to Facebook itself. As such, it seems highly unlikely that they will try to hold their position indefinitely on this one.

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#34

How about we learn to deal with the fact that they're not storing data that is yours in the sense of ownership, but only in the sense that it's about you? They're not storing data for no reason; They are storing data their customers have provided for the purposes of contacting you. They are storing data about you for the people who, like it or not, you shared your data with. The nasty 90s database-dump sharing is ove…

How about we learn to deal with the fact that they're not storing data that is yours in the sense of ownership, but only in the sense that it's about you?

We have learned to deal with it. In Europe, we have for the most part decided that allowing large organisations to compile personal data without either the data subject's consent or some other acceptable reason is not a good thing, and we have passed laws that forbid it.

I have the right to a little black book.

Sure you do, but in Europe you don't have the automatic right to keep personal data about me and millions of other people in it, and if you do then we might punish you for it.

I have a right to free speech, and sometimes your name is on my lips.

Not in Europe, you don't. In fact, legally speaking you don't have that absolute right anywhere else in the world that I know about either.

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#35
We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.

This should not actually be a complicated inquiry.

https://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRe...

https://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-...

Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#36

How about we learn to deal with the fact that they're not storing data that is yours in the sense of ownership, but only in the sense that it's about you? They're not storing data for no reason; They are storing data their customers have provided for the purposes of contacting you. They are storing data about you for the people who, like it or not, you shared your data with. The nasty 90s database-dump sharing is ove…

just to add to your point, even before global internet coverage, information ownership was murky. range, permanence and ease of distribution are much diferent but, take for example, a picture. if 2 people are in a picture taken by a third party, to what extent can any person excert ownership over that "data". the photographer, or either of the subjects. I am all for privacy, but I would find it hard to make a compell…

Expectations of privacy and data protection are going to have to evolve to keep up with technology.

To some extent, that means recognising that some actions enabled by new technology may be reasonable even if they involve personal data being collected, used, or passed on.

In other cases, that means recognising that new technologies pose new threats to privacy and things we could let by before because they posed no real threat are no longer as harmless and therefore potentially no longer as socially acceptable.

For example, I find the idea that you lose any expectation of any sort of privacy the moment you step outside your front door naive and dangerous, but people often claim this is reasonable in privacy debates based on an argument along the lines that anyone could see you walking down the street and it's always been that way.

Personally, I do see a few small differences between walking past someone who doesn't know you from Adam and will forget you within seconds and going for a walk in the view of a comprehensive network of cameras and microphones that allow unknown parties to remotely and systematically observe your every move and sound while you're out, along with those of everyone else nearby, subject you all to gait and voice analysis to identify you and infer information about your mood, interests and relationships, correlate that data with data about you from other sources, record everything permanently, and make it easy to search for information about you and everyone else who went out that day in order to make decisions about arbitrary and unknown criteria from what to offer you as an insurance premium next year to how to embarrass you out of running for office at the next election.

Clearly there is going to be a scale with many of these issues and we will need to find a socially acceptable balance and set reasonable expectations accordingly. It's also pretty clear that damage is being done by the dramatic erosion of privacy in the digital age because so far the capabilities of new technologies have far out-stripped the social and regulatory debates around it. Unfortunately, a big part of the problem is that many people have little idea of what is happening with personal data about them and even less understanding of the potential consequences unless they've been the unlucky one who really was a victim of, say, identity theft. Consequently the opinion polls tend to show most people not being that bothered by organisations like Facebook, even though when fully informed or after widely reported leaks with many victims potentially affected you tend to see quite different opinions being expressed.

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#37
post #24

Just so people are clear -- Even if you are not using Facebook, even if none of your friends ever use Facebok or tag you in any content, Facebook is maintaining a shadow profile on you. They have your web browsing habits from the Like button, and in many countries (such as the United States) they have bought data from data brokers such as Datalogix to gain access to your grocery store purchases and other data. They c…

> Even if you are not using Facebook, even if none of your friends ever use Facebok or tag you in any content, Facebook is maintaining a shadow profile on you.

That's a more general flaw with the current web. Just look at how much 3rd party content is embedded into almost any site. A good chunk of them are user trackers. Facebook is just one among many.

I think we need stronger compartmentalization in the web. The iframe sandboxing + message-channel APIs is a good start to isolate things and minimize information leakage, sadly that doesn't help with libraries loaded from CDNs. Mozilla's contextual identities is another approach[1]

[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Contextual_Identity_Projec...

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#38
post #3

What I find hilarious is that besides this being like the 4th or 5th time Facebook got caught with this sort of tracking [1], and each time claiming it's "only a bug" - which it also did when it got caught in Belgium this spring [2] - it now comes and says "Wait a minute! We've been using this umm...bug...for 5 years! We will appeal the ruling! We want to keep using that...umm, bug." [3] > The company is “working to…

Thanks for the links! OgleFace not only has our best brains working on getting people to click more ads, said brains are also whirring furiously justifying why OgleFace has gone off the charts on the scale of 0 to creepy. Sad..

"Best brain", that's a very narrow definition. Best in what exactly ? Crunching some numbers ? Doing nice css ? I guess those brains are sub standard when it comes to ethics...

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#39
post #6

>Facebook faces a fine of 250,000 euros ($269,000) a day Facebook's net income in 2014 was US$2.94 billion, according to Wikipedia. I'm not so sure they will care about a fine that low. Especially if they expect to make more money by continuing to store non-users' personal data.

Meh, $94MM a year is still probably not worth it just to store non-users data from Belgium.

All they need is a simple filter by country of IP. The question is rather they are willing to comply given that this may spread across Europe very quickly.

Re: Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

#40
post #23

so what are we waiting to deny third-party cookies?

Blocking third-party cookies breaks some websites, including some bank websites. Then again, Safari on iOS and OS X defaults to only allowing first-party cookies and websites must surely want their services to work on iOS.. Mozilla tried to adopt Safari's cookie policy for Firefox, but backed down when the ad industry turned up the heat: https://blog.mozilla.org/privacy/2013/02/25/firefox-getting-... http://www.compu…

Blocking third party cookies without blocking third party javascript is pretty much toothless.
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