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We need a better way to get to space

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31–40 of 70 posts

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#31
post #15

So is infertility in astronauts still a problem? I could be totally wrong, but I was under the impression we haven't solved the problem of increased radiation negatively affecting fertility in both male and female astronauts.

I'd have thought sperm/egg freezing would do the trick.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see the benefits of space elevators, to be honest. At an altitude of 100km the gravity is still virtually the same. And you still need a huge amount of fuel in order to put your rocket/plane into orbit. Unless you build an elevator with a height of 42'164km (geostationary orbit) - but that seems unrealistic to me.

> "I don't really see the benefits of space elevators, to be honest. At an altitude of 100km the gravity is still virtually the same." You would have made the first 100km of the journey more fuel efficient, is that not a good enough reason?

I think it's just prohibitively expensive at the moment. 100km (I think it would have to be a lot more anyway) is not much in terms of space exploration. And even then you will always use the majority of your fuel for acceleration towards and deceleration at your destination (however fuel needs for deceleration might be much lower if you can do some sort of atmospheric braking).

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people had waited to leave Europe until the 1970s the culture had been "refactored" enough for the masses, I doubt the world would have advanced as far as it had and the pressure of the population growth from industrialization would have caused some real issues. Actually I think it might be refactored even worse for the masses. Letting the average person go out and build new things helped a lot. Also, do you reall…

Perhaps technology has advanced too fast for the "culture". Perhaps we should design our intentions before we build the tech, and not the other way around. Look at NASA for inspiration on design and forethought.

I don't know why you're being downvoted, those ideas make perfect sense to me. Thoughts about how we want to structure our society should drive decisions on technology, we shouldn't have to adapt society to new technology if the society decides against using it.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#34

I was hoping the article would talk about space elevators, and not space planes. I'm eagerly awaiting materials science and geo-politics to mature enough to allow the construction of space elevators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

I think the problem with space elevators are not as much with the materials but with the logistics of deploying that. How do you get the cable up there? You can't just shoot up a rocket with a cable attached and expect the cable to stay upright: it would fall down unless you give it horizontal speed. But if you do that, you'd probably end up orbiting the Earth and tying it up with the cable.

The other option would be dropping the cable down, but you'd probably end up with a similar problem. I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure that dropping that amount of mass would shift the center of mass of the satellite-cable system and mess with the orbit.

Even if you manage to deploy the cable, you'd still have the problem of the counterweight. I've read that proposed solutions include a captured asteroid (we've just been able to land - or crash, depending on how you see it - in one), a space station/spaceport (that's definitely not cheap), an extended cable (which probably would require even more complex materials) or junk from the construction (still the same problem).

And we still haven't got to the point of security. How do you keep things (space junk, satellites, meteors) from hitting the cable? What would we do if several kilometers of ultra-strong cable fell down into the earth?

I think that space elevators are a nice fantasy, and just that. When we have mature enough materials and geopolitics, we'd probably be better off using them on other methods that seem to be far more viable.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#35

Space planes should absolutely be part of our strategy, but their effectiveness diminishes once you get past LEO. An effective program would have different vehicles for different purposes, using the right tool for each job.

Taking mass to low earth orbit (LEO) is the gating item to increased space travel and exploration; Skylon, SpaceX, Blue Origin, and Orbital Sciences are all focused on reducing this cost. It is quite well understood that outside of plans like Mars Direct and Semi-direct, interplanetary and interstellar travel will require other technologies such as novel electric and nuclear drives, but we are simply not at a point where that is an issue yet.[1][2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is you're designing based on your current world view and assumptions. When does this type of planning ever work and actually stand up to 20 years of history? 40? 100? In the 50's the us was DESIGNED around the car and suburbs. That worked well.

My logic is based on numbers. Earth Population, Imaginary lines in the sand, War over money. These are not signs of intelligence, especially when they have only 1 planet to survive on that gets more populated every day with little regard to long-term resource management, although I am proud of the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. :) This type of planning worked for Voyager (NASA/JPL). fyi: cars suck. Dirty, inefficient, a…

You mistake that I don't agree with you about how it should be. I just think we should deal with how it is and manage the chaotic system.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps technology has advanced too fast for the "culture". Perhaps we should design our intentions before we build the tech, and not the other way around. Look at NASA for inspiration on design and forethought.

The problem with this is you're designing based on your current world view and assumptions. When does this type of planning ever work and actually stand up to 20 years of history? 40? 100? In the 50's the us was DESIGNED around the car and suburbs. That worked well.

> "The problem with this is you're designing based on your current world view and assumptions. When does this type of planning ever work and actually stand up to 20 years of history?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferatio...

With a few exceptions, that's been working since the 70's.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#38
post #3

Much as I love to cheer for British engineering, I don't understand the logic here. A rocket would require an expensive inspection before reuse but a spaceplane wouldn't? Why? Also not one SABRE engine has even been built yet, whereas SpaceX has got very close to landing their rockets.

SpaceX have landed their rockets. Just not ... in one piece.

They've landed their rockets in one piece, which proceeded to tip over and explode. An important distinction.

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#39

I was hoping the article would talk about space elevators, and not space planes. I'm eagerly awaiting materials science and geo-politics to mature enough to allow the construction of space elevators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

I think the problem with space elevators are not as much with the materials but with the logistics of deploying that. How do you get the cable up there? You can't just shoot up a rocket with a cable attached and expect the cable to stay upright: it would fall down unless you give it horizontal speed. But if you do that, you'd probably end up orbiting the Earth and tying it up with the cable. The other option would be…

> You can't just shoot up a rocket with a cable attached and expect the cable to stay upright...

Well, actually...

Package your cable up, launch it, move to geosynchronous orbit. Start deploying your cable. Once it gets long enough, say a few kilometres long, tides hold it rigidly pointing towards Earth. You solve the counterweight problem by also extending a cable outwards from your launch vehicle, so keeping the centre of gravity still. Eventually the bottom of the cable reaches ground level and you're done. On the plus side, you now also have a 36,000km long cable extending past geostationary orbit, ideal for interplanetary launches.

> What would we do if several kilometers of ultra-strong cable fell down into the earth?

Not much. If the point at which it's severed is low, the lower part will just fall down and you pick it up and weld it back on. If it's a bit higher, the lower part falls down and burns it. If it's a bit higher still, it goes into orbit.

People have been thinking about the engineering and geometry of space elevators for a long, long time...

Re: We need a better way to get to space

#40
post #25

I was hoping the article would talk about space elevators, and not space planes. I'm eagerly awaiting materials science and geo-politics to mature enough to allow the construction of space elevators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

I don't really see the benefits of space elevators, to be honest. At an altitude of 100km the gravity is still virtually the same. And you still need a huge amount of fuel in order to put your rocket/plane into orbit. Unless you build an elevator with a height of 42'164km (geostationary orbit) - but that seems unrealistic to me.

You have to build space elevators up to geostationary orbit (and beyond). That's the whole point; they don't work otherwise.
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