How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult • Hacker News Board

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#31

Post by ido » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 8:36 AM UTC

krasin wrote: post #28

ido wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, as a college student it is possible all your friends (or a lot of them) will live in that one huge building. But as time passes people move around (even within the same city) for jobs, family, and lots of other reasons & suddenly all your friends don't all live in the same huge building.

In this case, these friends are not farther than in usual case of a low-density suburban. You will have to drive, but not longer than if you lived in a single family house, as the building + park in the proposal above takes about the same space as 1000 single-family houses. So, it makes the friends more accessible, if they are in the same neighborhood, and not less accessible otherwise. Also, living in the same build…

Yeah, I wasn't comparing it to suburban living but just to normal residential areas in most European cities that comprise of lots of 4-6 story buildings (and some higher) with public parks around them, but rarely a huge pi*1km^2 lawn.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#32

Post by TulliusCicero » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 8:47 AM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #29

TulliusCicero wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. A good transportation policy takes all major modes seriously. If y…

> Nobody wants to completely get rid of cars, I've seen far too many people argue viciously for exactly that. > transportation nerds like myself just want the different modes to be on an even playing field, rather than cars being always hyper-dominant like they usually have been in the US. Agreed.

> I've seen far too many people argue viciously for exactly that.

Even on an aggressively pro-bike blog like BikePortland, this kind of opinion is an extreme minority. There are urbanists who really despise cars, or at least despise cars in urban areas, but they're just a vocal fringe. Most want more equalized resources and care for walking, biking, and transit, and they want each mode prioritized for an area in a way that makes sense based on each mode's attributes (e.g. cars should be prioritized for freeways between cities, denser modes prioritized in expensive urban cores).

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#33

Post by Pyxl101 » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 8:59 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #18

topspin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with K…

Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what…

> Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower.

It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner.

Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be a part of: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/

> The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do it for you.

> The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure unquote with people from work.

That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism.

----

> Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be

What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#34

Post by TulliusCicero » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 9:16 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #33

TulliusCicero wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what…

> Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countrie…

Yes, those societies are different, obviously. My point was just that it's certainly possible to have high social cohesion even with dense urban living.

> What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area?

There's nothing necessarily wrong with localities having their own laws, of course. I'm not advocating for overthrowing democracy, I'm just arguing that overly restrictive anti-density regulations have had a number of bad impacts:

- In desirable metros, skyrocketing property values caused by restrictions on new housing supply act as a large wealth transfer from the young to the old.

- Needing to use a car hurts the poor, hurts college students, hurts childrens' independence, and hurts residents' healthiness.

- Lower density developments are more energy- and thus carbon-intensive.

- Wasted time on long commutes because the only affordable housing is far away is a huge economic sink.

- The economy overall is weaker because many people avoid moving to high-productivity areas like Silicon Valley or NYC, and instead go to lower-productivity cities, because of high housing costs caused by a lack of supply: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/25/h...

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#35

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 9:30 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #18

topspin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with K…

Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what…

You can't determine people's preference via the market unless everyone has enough money to 'vote'for their preference - my preference is for a large plot in the country but my money buys a vote for a small urban site.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#36

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 9:35 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #34

Pyxl101 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countrie…

Yes, those societies are different, obviously. My point was just that it's certainly possible to have high social cohesion even with dense urban living. > What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? There's nothing necessarily wrong with localities having their own laws, of course. I'm not advocating for overthrowing democracy, I'm just arguing that overly restrictive anti-de…

[deleted]

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#37

Post by lagadu » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 11:04 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #15

topspin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural i…

> anti-car municipal governments impeding road development In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." > However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to t…

> In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars."

I agree with you but in the sense that non-car transports should be treated much more seriously than cars, which I suspect is not what you meant to transmit.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#38

Post by prawn » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 11:25 AM UTC

rcurry wrote: post #25

topspin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural i…

My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.

Is that because of the people themselves, or because you had a reason to interact socially? I think given reasons to interact, people in denser areas have just as healthy relationships. But many of us don't create those opportunities by default on the street or in the apartment lift. But provide a little catalyst (street parade, removalist trying to reverse down a tight lane, lost dog, etc) and people come together.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#39

Post by vijayr » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #18

topspin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with K…

Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what…

It isn't fair to compare U.S with countries like Japan, Denmark etc. U.S is very big and very diverse compared to these countries and that presents a different set of challenges.

Once a friend and I started counting languages as we walked around Times Square. In 20 mins, we counted a dozen then gave up (we couldn't identify the others we heard). With such diversity, it is not easy to agree on anything without lots of effort, discussions and compromises.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#40

Post by soylentcola » Mon, Nov 02, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

pasbesoin wrote: post #3

Counterpoint: If you've ever really been burned by having a crappy neighbor -- or a string of them -- you may be inclined to get as far away as possible. I'm sensitive to noise, and I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones, on multiple occasions. (On one occasion, inescapable even when I was across the street and down two houses.) I'd like a greater sense of community, but I never want to g…

I personally love urban life for the most part. I grew up in the "boonies" and I sometimes think that childhood/teenage boredom due to not having many things to do or other young people nearby influenced my feelings on the matter.

But the one thing that makes me consider moving to a more rural setting is the fact that I sometimes want to make noise (playing instruments, etc) but there aren't as many opportunities when I live in a townhouse. I mostly just compromise by playing at lower volumes (less fun when it comes to playing guitar or whatever), playing through headphones (again, less fun because lower volume or using headphones doesn't give the satisfaction of how a guitar or bass sounds through a proper amp at "rock and roll" volumes).

Still, I'm not a total asshole so I limit my volumes and I only play during hours when it's much less likely that anyone nearby would be sleeping. I also keep that stuff in the basement so it doesn't "leak" out as much that way.

If I had the money to just buy an old warehouse or a property in a remote location for playing music or watching movies on a projection screen with theater-volume speakers, I'd do it in a heartbeat but that's just a pipe dream. I don't have the funds to purchase or rent access to such a space.

So for now, the solution is to play music quieter/at more "decent" hours and keep the theater experience restricted to outdoor movies at a friend's house in the country during the summer. For these sorts of activities that go hand in hand with loud volume, you really are more limited in the city. It's not enough to make me give up short commutes and walking/taxi access to bars, restaurants, and arts/entertainment venues but it's definitely a consideration.