Live data from Hacker News

A Way to Detect Bias

paulgraham.com

31–40 of 224 posts

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#31
post #7

A related observation (which I've been making for a long time) is that the absence of mediocre women in positions of power is strong evidence of bias. Men can succeed when they're mediocre, but women have to be exceptional. Likewise for minorities.

What's "exceptional"? I've known many women in my career and many of them were mediocre. Some were in positions of authority and some weren't. Another commenter lists several "mediocre" women in the corporate and political world (and leaves out some big ones, like Meg Whitman). If you're talking about becoming a CEO, you have to be an "exceptional" man to get there too, in absolute terms.

I feel like the root erroneous assumption here is that an equal amount of people of all types are interested in the same things and that the only reason any group becomes more represented than another is that the others are getting alienated or funneled out somewhere along the way. That is a completely incorrect and invalid assumption. The fact that there are a lot more non-English-speakers in janitorial work in the US (when I worked as a janitor, I was 1 of 2 English speakers on the 12-person janitorial staff) doesn't necessarily mean the janitorial manager is biased against English speakers; it means that due to external considerations, like the fact that almost all other jobs require you to speak the native language, non-English-speakers are better suited for janitorial work, and therefore people do the logical thing, apply for work that they can do, and end up comprising a larger section of the application pool.

People make decisions based on social, cultural, and physical expectations of them, and there's not anything wrong with that. By and large, women do not have an interest in computer sciencey or entrepreneurial work. It's OK if a woman does, but it's also OK to note that most women don't. There's nothing we need to fix about it. Most women don't want to do it, and there's no reason to force them.

Why do you see fewer women becoming CEOs? Because fewer women want that kind of job and fewer women are qualified for that kind of job due to the biological realities of humanity that require women to take time out for pregnancy and child-rearing (sorry denialists, I didn't invent biology and choose that only women could bear and nurse children, so don't take it up with me), and the social and cultural expectations that have formed around these biological realities. In short, the serious applicant pool includes only a very small amount of women, so only a very small number of women obtain that position.

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#32
The phenomena of "stereotype threat" complicates this conclusion however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat

When a member of a group is primed with a stereotype that their group underperforms at a task, they are more likely to underperform. So there could be a selection process biased against a group, and a selected member could be an above-average performer otherwise but, because of work environment, be underperforming.

Some universities work to remedy this through support groups or other practices aimed at under-represented minorities, and they appear to help students be more successful academically. On the other hand, there's the Hawthorne effect... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#33
People, most of whom clearly are not that good at math, are being really harsh on Paul Graham.

Graham is mostly right, but slightly incorrect. In particular, suppose group A has the distribution f(x) and B has the distribution g(x).

If f(x) and g(x) are shaped significantly differently past the cutoff, then mean(H(x-C)f(x)) and mean(H(x-c)g(x)) might not agree even though there is no bias by construction. (Here H(x) is a step function and C the cutoff).

However, there is an easy fix: compute the minima of the support of the distribution rather than mean. min(H(x-C)f(x)) = min(H(x-C)g(x)) = C.

In practice, measure the weakest male and weakest female to be accepted in your sample set, or some similar approximation.

I'm pretty sure this is a valid frequentist hypothesis test. I've got half a proof worked out on paper already. It depends very weakly (and non-parametrically) on f(x) and g(x), but it works in basically the exact way Graham wants it to. Every counterexample I can think of is really pathological. My next blog post will probably be a proof of this.

All this negativity is really an overreaction. I know it's fun to totally debunk someone on details, but these are mostly fixable details.

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#34
Could someone who read it more attnetively tell me, by this methodology,

-> If in retrospect YC finds any factor that its selected founders who turn into unicorns ($1b, $10b etc) have in common (more than its non-unicorn, also accepted founders)

-> Then by this method, could it conclude retroactively that it had been "biased" against that factor? (since it is present more than in its non-unicorns whom it had also admitted; i.e. in other words, those with the factor are more performant than "would be expected" without the bias against it?)

Or have I misunderstood?

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#35

The phenomena of "stereotype threat" complicates this conclusion however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat When a member of a group is primed with a stereotype that their group underperforms at a task, they are more likely to underperform. So there could be a selection process biased against a group, and a selected member could be an above-average performer otherwise but, because of work environment, b…

This is only a bias if the stereotype effect is stronger on measurements than in real life. If stereotype threat affects test performance and real performance the same way, then it means that the stereotyped group is truly inferior.

Do you have evidence that stereotype threat hurts test performance more than real performance?

(Of course, in a hypothetical world which only eliminated the stereotype, the group would cease to be inferior. I.e., the inferiority is based on context, and is not intrinsic.)

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#36
post #10

Graham's statement about the possible bias of First Round is unfounded. This was not any sort of a real study like Graham thinks and First Round clearly notes that. When the returns are as skewed as they are in venture capital ( http://www.sethlevine.com/archives/2014/08/venture-outcomes-... ), a small sample size and a simple analysis won't do. First Round even excluded their investment in Uber because it would skew…

Even if it were a statistically appropriate sample size and female founders still out performed male founders it still wouldn't exlcude other likely explanations other than bias. What if the culture in venture capital is more willing to assist and mentor female founders leading to greater success? In academia there is a women are selected over equally qualified men 2:1 for tenure positions now [1]. It is not unreasonable to wonder if a similiar hand up is being given to female founders in terms of training, social network inclusion, and mentorship leading to greater success.

Alternatively, there may be a selection process in society that means only the most motivated women become entrepeneurs and so beat the average male entrepeneur.

[1]. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/04/08/1418878112.abst...

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#37

People, most of whom clearly are not that good at math, are being really harsh on Paul Graham. Graham is mostly right, but slightly incorrect. In particular, suppose group A has the distribution f(x) and B has the distribution g(x). If f(x) and g(x) are shaped significantly differently past the cutoff , then mean(H(x-C)f(x)) and mean(H(x-c)g(x)) might not agree even though there is no bias by construction. (Here H(x)…

Wouldn't the weakest male and weakest female founders be underperforming more due to individual factors than bias?

Maybe a mean of the lower quartile would remove some the the noise.

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#38
If candidates from group A perform more strongly on average than those from group B there are other possible causes than bias in the selection process itself. For instance, members of group A may only apply at a higher level of self-assessment for how likely they are to succeed than those in group B. The reason for this could be opportunity cost not present for group B, overconfidence or lack of underconference in group B or underconference or lack of overconfidence in group A.

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately, you could conclude that instead of "mediocre" Asians being excluded by bias, Asians have an external advantage that makes them perform better. Maybe it's cultural, since most Asians are taught a very strong work ethic and heavy emphasis is placed on formal schooling, succeeding, and fitting in. Maybe Asians are physically better adapted to that type of work, with brains that retain information more easil…

Even if Asians perform better for external reasons, the selection process should account for that before the selection is made, and the admitted class should be roughly equal performers, as a group. Unless Asians have a very lumpy shaped performance curve across the group

This presupposes that we should not accept unequal representation among groups. I don't believe that, and I don't think it's an implicit Western value. People should be allowed to flourish according to their natural advantages. The value is to try not to make an early judgment and exclude people based on assumptions about their group's capability, whether that exclusion is based on the group's perceived disadvantage or advantage. The idea is that the individual shouldn't be held accountable for things he had nothing to do with, and shouldn't be assumed to be automatically compliant with stereotypes. I don't see a need to start throttling groups that are doing "too well".

Re: A Way to Detect Bias

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's possible. Without concrete data to give you, there are some suspicions that because of the much better performance of Asian students, they're being limited in the admissions process. Otherwise, Asian students would make up the vast majority of the students admitted. This would crowd out the non-Asian students accepted for admission. In this case, it would be more accurate to say that admissions officers limit…

>admissions officers limit the number of Asian students accepted instead of saying admissions folks are biased against Asian students // The effect is the same isn't it? Less chance for a student with ancestors from a particular geographic locale getting a placement.

The effect would result in the same situation, but the cause is much different.
Post reply on HN