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The West Is Choked by Fear

spiegel.de

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Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#31

Post by ErrantX »

akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

I see where this argument comes from. It's a bit of a chestnut but this probably applies:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Indeed it could be argued that allowing him to be persecuted for his trolling in such an excessive way is doing a dis-service to those who died protecting this freedom.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#32

Post by jimbokun »

rglovejoy wrote: post #18
lucifer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)

The difference is that the Holocaust is something that really happened, with eyewitnesses and documents to prove it. The stuff in the Bible or the Koran is a matter of faith, and can't be proven by the scientific method. Personally, I think that the Bible and the Koran are a bunch of fairy tales written a long time ago to frighten people into doing things that will keep them from going to hell.

In my opinion, people unwilling to live in a society with true freedom of speech are cowards.

Here in the U.S., we allowed Ahmadinejad to come here and spout his Holocaust denial nonsense. Then we mock him mercilessly, and are glad that he shows us so clearly the kind of person we are dealing with.

Don't be afraid of speech. Use better, more persuasive speech to win over those who disagree with you. Anything else is a form of coercion.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#33

Post by theotherside »

bad_user wrote: post #27
[deleted] wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> * No, you don't, as slander is illegal* Slander is only illegal when the statements are said to be true (and can be proven that they are false) ... humor and satire newspapers and magazines can publish whatever they want ... both in the US and the EU. > The point is, as you conceded, that everyone would agree I was stupid and had it coming. No, there's no justification for violence. Ever. If you're a rambling idiot…

Just to clarify, I deleted the parent before your response as I have already said my piece and it doesn't really add anything.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#34

Post by bad_user »

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

> I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me

I like people that can stand-up for their beliefs.

The others are more or less cowards ... unless they have a good reason for it, like protecting their families. What's your excuse? Losing karma-points?

> You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight

In the US and the EU ... satire and humor are not considered to be slander.

> If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore

Personally I wouldn't get upset if you called all mothers filthy whores (since sometimes, there's some truth to that) ... at worst I would say that "it's not funny" and move along.

> Treating individuals like this with a bit of sensitivity would be the civilized thing to do

Yes, it would be civilized. But I also think misbehaviors should get some form of social punishment (as so should you, if you're picking fights for no reason at all).

When a woman in some third-world country is beaten to death because she was unfaithful ... I guess, by some people's views, she had it coming also. Should we all be civilized to those that did it, because they are impoverished and uneducated ... and not condemn their actions?

Also satire and humor are healthy ingredients for a healthy society ... if you haven't realized it, those comics may actually help in chilling the usage of those Muslim stereotypes. It's called reverse psychology ;)

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#35

Post by jimbokun »

Rod wrote: post #5
theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake. However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq).…

What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?

As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them.

I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege.

Yes, the current Republican party does not subscribe to that ethos. But that is part of the reason why they are losing so many elections recently. The problem is not that they are Christians with strongly held beliefs that they express openly. The problem is that more and more they try to force those beliefs on others, whether their fellow citizens or Muslims around the world. (This is not the only reason they are losing, a million caveats apply, etc. etc.)

Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe. This is because they know that they are free to worship here as they please and freely express what they think, and that trying to control what others can say or think will not be tolerated.

This is all just my opinion, of course, and am open to evidence to the contrary.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#36

Post by theotherside »

philk wrote: post #25
rbanffy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop modding theotherside down. This discussion is important.

Sorry, but no. Freedom of speech is a really important thing and someone who says "Fuck freedom of speech" is not someone I can reasonably agree with. Also, the fact that he's created a new account just to post this discredits his arguments further. "I disagree with this article but not enough to lose a couple of points of karma".

I actually meant "fuck this being about freedom of speech".

I made a new account because I run a business, and don't want that associated with my own personal beliefs.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#37

Post by by »

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

I would like you to consider Fatwa 87671 which says "Swearing is considered a debauchery and an immoral act".

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&...

Is there an Islamic counter-argument to this position which you can provide to justify your use of language?

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#38

Post by philk »

jimbokun wrote: post #35
Rod wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake. However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq).…

What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better? As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them. I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we wan…

I suspect that there are actually a couple of other reasons why muslims are better integrated into the US than Europe:

a) It's more geographically remote from Islamic countries hence you have fewer unskilled immigrants turning up.

b) American has less in the way of welfare so immigrants (and their children) have to get jobs. Working with fellow citizens makes you realise that you have something in common with them and encourages integration.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#39

Post by InclinedPlane »

akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

When applied to any other religion in the world, especially Christianity, it's legitimate criticism. But somehow Islam gets special dispensation (perhaps because Islamic reactionaries have a tendency towards violence, and cowards have a tendency towards caving in to threats of violence).

"Piss Christ" (look it up) has been lauded as a legitimate work of art. And cartoons that are much more intentionally harmful toward Christianity or Judaism are printed on editorial pages every day in the western world.

The Mohammad cartoons were very mild in comparison to the standards of criticism in the western world. If we cannot support criticism of Islam because we lack the balls to set Muslims straight when they throw violent tantrums then we do not have freedom of speech anymore. And it's only a matter of time before Muslims make greater and greater use of this new power they've discovered. And too it's only a matter of time before every group realizes that threats of violence are an effective means of exercising influence over others.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#40

Post by CapitalistCartr »

akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

Freedom of speech isn't defended at Michaelangeo's David; It's defended at Larry Flynt's Hustler.
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