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Girl, Bye

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Re: Girl, Bye

#31

Post by lukev »

exstudent2 wrote: post #25
lukev wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author also gives her analysis of the situation, to which you give no credence at all. In other words, when a woman writes an entire post about an experience: "I perceive sexism at my workplace", your immediate reaction is "your perception is invalid, given the facts!" even though you don't work there and don't know any of the people involved. Sexism. I apologize for the confrontational tone, but I am so frustrat…

She's casually calling people rapists in her post and you're saying that to not support that is sexist. I don't think there's anything we're going to agree on.

I'm saying that to deliberately undermine and dismiss the experiences of women in our field, in a public forum, is sexist.

This is true regardless of whether you find their rhetoric agreeable or not.

Re: Girl, Bye

#32

Post by Mz »

I am not upvoting this. I would like to see less of this on HN. As a woman, I sympathize with her frustration. I understand her anger. I think this could go over well in a different forum. It will not play well here. It will not help further productive discussion about a real path forward.

It frustrates me that this kind of stuff gets upvoted -- often far more than more even-handed writing that looks for a real path forward instead of someone to blame -- and then gets a lot of dismissive commentary. This only helps reinforce battle lines. It doesn't generally make men sympathetic to what women face; it doesn't propose an effective path forward; it doesn't provide new tools or mental models for genuinely improving things.

Men blame women for the fact that women feel crapped on. Women blame men for the fact that women feel crapped on. Neither of these positions gets us to a place where women stop feeling crapped on. Neither gives a new way to view the problem space so we can stop pointing fingers and start working together better.

Re: Girl, Bye

#33

Post by lukev »

zzalpha wrote: post #29
lukev wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, this is subtle, because everything you say is good advice and can't really be argued against. Calm down, don't overreact, give the benefit of the doubt, be constructive, etc, etc. These are basic, undeniable principles of good human interaction. But. But . Consider an alternative hypothesis; that the author really did experience a bit of nasty, petty sexism. In that case, responses like yours at best sweep the pr…

In other words, if this is a real problem, your undeniably good advice actually isn't constructive towards fixing the root issue. It's allowing it to perpetuate. And raging on Tumblr is? Look, if there's some deeply embedded injustice going on, here, it's not evident from this single exchange. If this single exchange is part of a broader pattern with this person , that's something a manager and HR can help deal with,…

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination.

Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publicly comment on it, we take a side.

If you show support, you're sending the message to everyone that that discrimination is not cool.

If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem. If you doubt the reliability of someone, do it privately. Don't comment at all. As it is, I can only assume that you actively oppose the growing movement to try and solve this problem.

Speech acts matter. Even online.

Re: Girl, Bye

#34

Post by zzalpha »

lukev wrote: post #33
zzalpha wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, if this is a real problem, your undeniably good advice actually isn't constructive towards fixing the root issue. It's allowing it to perpetuate. And raging on Tumblr is? Look, if there's some deeply embedded injustice going on, here, it's not evident from this single exchange. If this single exchange is part of a broader pattern with this person , that's something a manager and HR can help deal with,…

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publi…

"Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination.

Where did I say she should do that?

I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up.

Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there?

If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the status quo and denying that there is a problem.

If you assume all workplace confrontations between man and woman represent some form of sexism, you diminish the actual struggles of women everywhere.

----

As a related aside, Dr. King had a few words to say along these lines, including:

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.

It would seem you would've told King he should keep his observations to himself.

Re: Girl, Bye

#35

Post by exstudent2 »

lukev wrote: post #31
exstudent2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's casually calling people rapists in her post and you're saying that to not support that is sexist. I don't think there's anything we're going to agree on.

I'm saying that to deliberately undermine and dismiss the experiences of women in our field, in a public forum, is sexist . This is true regardless of whether you find their rhetoric agreeable or not.

Disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. My comments on this article would be the same regardless of the author's gender.

Re: Girl, Bye

#36

Post by Mz »

exstudent2 wrote: post #35
lukev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that to deliberately undermine and dismiss the experiences of women in our field, in a public forum, is sexist . This is true regardless of whether you find their rhetoric agreeable or not.

Disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. My comments on this article would be the same regardless of the author's gender.

No, disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. The problem is that men readily speak up to disagree with us, rarely speak up to agree, validate, genuinely encourage, etc. When all you hear is disagreement, when that is the only way an entire segment of the population will engage you, it is a real problem.

I am debating flagging this piece. I see no good coming of it and I am frustrated that this stuff gets upvoted and then verbally pissed on when better stuff gets ignored.

Re: Girl, Bye

#37

Post by AnimalMuppet »

lukev wrote: post #33
zzalpha wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, if this is a real problem, your undeniably good advice actually isn't constructive towards fixing the root issue. It's allowing it to perpetuate. And raging on Tumblr is? Look, if there's some deeply embedded injustice going on, here, it's not evident from this single exchange. If this single exchange is part of a broader pattern with this person , that's something a manager and HR can help deal with,…

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publi…

What is your default assumption?

Stuff happens. Is your default assumption that the stuff is sexism in action?

Look, there is sexism. I don't deny it. You know it, I know it, and everyone who isn't actively in denial knows it.

But there are also honest misunderstandings. And there are personal, petty actions that are just because people are petty. Even if the recipient is female, it isn't always sexism.

So, when a situation happens, what is your default assumption? Do you immediately assume that it's sexism (or racism, or ageism, or whatever happens to best fit the identity of the recipient)?

I suggest that the default assumption should be that it's accidental and/or just pettiness. When a pattern develops (like, yes, this person is petty and vindictive, but only to females), then you can claim sexism. And then you should challenge it, rather than let it slide.

Re: Girl, Bye

#38

Post by exstudent2 »

Mz wrote: post #36
exstudent2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. My comments on this article would be the same regardless of the author's gender.

No, disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. The problem is that men readily speak up to disagree with us, rarely speak up to agree, validate, genuinely encourage, etc. When all you hear is disagreement, when that is the only way an entire segment of the population will engage you, it is a real problem. I am debating flagging this piece. I see no good coming of it and I am frustrated that this stuff gets upvoted and t…

I'm commenting on this post because her accusations were brash and unfounded (based on her own statements) and I think bashing your current employer on Tumblr is unprofessional. I don't see how it relates to HN other than as a chance to talk about HR issues.

I actually think the company in question handled this really well. It will be interesting to see what they do next though, I would honestly have troubles with this person if I had to go back to work with them after this.

> men readily speak up to disagree with us, rarely speak up to agree, validate, genuinely encourage, etc.

There are men in this very thread stressing the importance of speaking up for women regardless of facts in all public conversation as a political action.

Aside from that, no one should expect anyone else to go to bat for them (and they should expect to get called out on their mistakes). It's the way the world works for men and women.

Re: Girl, Bye

#39

Post by Mz »

exstudent2 wrote: post #38
Mz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. The problem is that men readily speak up to disagree with us, rarely speak up to agree, validate, genuinely encourage, etc. When all you hear is disagreement, when that is the only way an entire segment of the population will engage you, it is a real problem. I am debating flagging this piece. I see no good coming of it and I am frustrated that this stuff gets upvoted and t…

I'm commenting on this post because her accusations were brash and unfounded (based on her own statements) and I think bashing your current employer on Tumblr is unprofessional. I don't see how it relates to HN other than as a chance to talk about HR issues. I actually think the company in question handled this really well. It will be interesting to see what they do next though, I would honestly have troubles with th…

I see a lot wrong with what you are saying. But I don't see a lot of value in arguing it. If I argue with men here about sexism, I get told that I am "combative" and therefore I am at fault for whatever problems I feel exist (that I experience firsthand). I have flagged this piece. I dislike this entire conversation. And when I submit things that do propose other points of view and are trying to find real solutions, they mostly get ignored.

This is what I submitted today (yes, I wrote it -- not really relevant to why I am aggravated): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10453412

It has one upvote and no comments. Meanwhile, plenty of people are happy to piss and moan about how this woman is Doing It Wrong, upvote this and fill it up with ugly comments.

I would like to see a great deal more focus on how to solve this. This is not it.

Having flagged this piece, I plan to move on. I think this does not help anyone.

Re: Girl, Bye

#40

Post by lukev »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #37
lukev wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publi…

What is your default assumption? Stuff happens. Is your default assumption that the stuff is sexism in action? Look, there is sexism. I don't deny it. You know it, I know it, and everyone who isn't actively in denial knows it. But there are also honest misunderstandings. And there are personal, petty actions that are just because people are petty. Even if the recipient is female, it isn't always sexism. So, when a si…

This argument is insidious, because it's extremely difficult to document a pattern, particularly when folk come out of the woodwork to undermine each and every individual anecdote claiming sexism (as in this and every other thread like this on HN. Even, I would point out, in cases where the sexism is undeniable to any rational observer).

Do you have to believe every anecdote? Of course not. Should you let those women have a voice to air their perceived grievances, without stifling them in the name of "fairness" or "defaults"? To do any less is the very definition of institutional sexism.

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