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China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

newscientist.com

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Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#31
post #2

Old-school dictatorships were so brash and clumsy the way they punished dissent with firing squads and trips to the gulag. It's just as effective to punish dissent by slowly but surely ruining the life of those who express dissenting opinions. That way, instead of making dissenters into martyrs, you just make them look like losers. Very clever, China.

Actually, the Soviet Gulag was mostly about slave labour - they arrested people to make them slaves because they thought this would be efficient - which it wasn't. If they thought you really were a threat you were executed rather than being sent to a camp. I can recommend Anne Applebaum's book: http://www.anneapplebaum.com/gulag-a-history/

"If they thought you really were a threat you were executed rather than being sent to a camp."

True, but the threat of deportation was nonetheless one of the Nomenklatura's weapon of choice. Someone's death was, even in the aftermath of the WW2 mass carnage, perceived as brutal mean of "solving" problems and could spur further backslash/dissidence. Someone's separation from their social circle however, was a much more safer method and the perpetrators were able to sleep at night because there could hardly be any retribution for such a thing.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#32
post #2

Old-school dictatorships were so brash and clumsy the way they punished dissent with firing squads and trips to the gulag. It's just as effective to punish dissent by slowly but surely ruining the life of those who express dissenting opinions. That way, instead of making dissenters into martyrs, you just make them look like losers. Very clever, China.

Actually, the Soviet Gulag was mostly about slave labour - they arrested people to make them slaves because they thought this would be efficient - which it wasn't. If they thought you really were a threat you were executed rather than being sent to a camp. I can recommend Anne Applebaum's book: http://www.anneapplebaum.com/gulag-a-history/

There was a very specific intent of extermination in the slave labour thing, not just utilization of slave labour. Political prisoners would be killed by having too little food when doing heavy work, while ordinary criminals, who would have been equally useful as slave labour, were given a privileged position. [0]

While at this, Soviets also made experiments with people, and I think this was to some extent done out of sheer curiosity for information.

For instance, take a group of men, split them to three and send them to build a canal (dig earth with shovel, cut down trees with hand saw, use these methods to build embankments for a canal).

One of the groups gets "normal" rations (which are far below what is needed to survive). One group gets a little bit more bread, another group gets even less. Then set them to work, and observe how quickly each of them dies. This enables you to optimize a conversion ratio of bread-and-people to kilometres-of-canal.

Soviets studied this, and their then-friends the Nazis came to observe and study and then refined the methods later on.

[0] https://books.google.fi/books/about/Kremlin_kellot.html?id=K... (written by Arvo "Poika" Tuominen, a Finnish communist who was in close contact with Stalin in 1930's. Unfortunately only in Finnish)

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#33
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very clever, China. But is it, really? Introducing arbitrary, statistically irrelevant incentives into the rating only goes to undermine the rating's effectiveness: gauging the financial risk. In the end it is a penalty imposed on Chinese banking and overall economy.

You evaluate this as a credit score. It is not. It is a "citizen score", where the Chinese state is in effect levying an extra tax on business in order to finance financial benefits for those it considers well behaved, and where a credit score is just one of the components. They could have done the same with direct cash transfers, but here they're leveraging the credit system to make it less blatant (you can pretend…

Yes it's a clear attempt to fund the Little Red Book on the private dime. But if the social rating will prove a loss driver for finance sector, it will near inevitably be circumvented in one way or another by the actors while advertising formal compliance.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#34

And the arms race between freedom and control goes on. “ All that behaviour will be integrated into one comprehensive assessment of you as a person ” The ultimate simplification, condensing a human being to a simple number. Gods have always been used to rationalise entitlement to and application of power. This one is electrified and fully programmable. As a concept, this is so predictable that it's already boring (wa…

> We already had a period of enlightenment that disposed of the “old gods”. And they seriously believe an electrified god artefact would fare any better? Plenty of people think that way about money, with the ends often justifying the means to astonishing degrees. We create things, then worship them. Plenty of people get manipulated to elect people, and that makes what those do right by definition in their eyes, ratio…

Money is a curious sort of behavioral information network, in that the information is destroyed at every hop. If you pay five dollars at my hot dog stand, I accept the exchange in value without the slightest clue if the money came from tutoring orphans, or human trafficking. I'm honestly unsure which has greater perverse incentives and moral hazard: behavioral opacity, or behavioral transparency. (Note that the only entities that have access to at least some of the information of each money hop are governments, banks, credit agencies, and to some extent online silos like Amazon.)

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#36
post #16
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have basically been doing this since forever, via models like J.S. Mill's social tyranny. Here in the West we already do it to some degree through upvoting/downvoting, Facebook likes and Twitter followers, Tinder, Hot or Not, and Peeple, among others. It seems less like a new form for evil government oppression so much as one we will gladly push on each other ourselves - another evolution of using technology t…

I find it quite ironic that you're being downvoted for this. The amount of discussions about voting even on HN makes it quite clear that even here we are engaging in social-engineering through votes. We see all over the place how people are starting comments with "I know I'll be downvoted for this, but...". Implicit in that is the admission that it takes an extra temptation or push to post something we know will face…

I always disliked those comments. That's just cowardice.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#37

Charles Stross commented on these reports, http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/10/it-could... "The gamification of social conformity, overseen by an authoritarian government and mediated by nudge theory, is a thing of beauty and horror; who needs cops with nightsticks to beat up dissidents when their friends and family will give them a tongue-lashing on behalf of the government for the price of a discoun…

and here in the US its done through proxies who sue to get access to donation lists, list of those who supported petitions, access to previously courted locked documents, and such, in order to shut down speech or actions they don't like. sometimes even government agencies get involved with political activist abusing their position. so while China might codify affecting people's credit scores and "social" score make n…

Proxies like college professors? Students gain points by telling professors what the professors want to hear and if the students thoughts manifest in submitted papers are dissimilar from the professors they are penalized. So, while writing and thinking more important the thinking students are trying to figure out what the professors want to hear.

Of course, this doesn't apply to any discipline that is a system like math, STEM, physics, ect.. But in humanities, what students are learning is to think like their teachers.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#38
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite ironic that you're being downvoted for this. The amount of discussions about voting even on HN makes it quite clear that even here we are engaging in social-engineering through votes. We see all over the place how people are starting comments with "I know I'll be downvoted for this, but...". Implicit in that is the admission that it takes an extra temptation or push to post something we know will face…

I always disliked those comments. That's just cowardice.

Same here. I always flag those kinds of comments here, and when I see them on Reddit, I always report for vote manipulation.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and here in the US its done through proxies who sue to get access to donation lists, list of those who supported petitions, access to previously courted locked documents, and such, in order to shut down speech or actions they don't like. sometimes even government agencies get involved with political activist abusing their position. so while China might codify affecting people's credit scores and "social" score make n…

Proxies like college professors? Students gain points by telling professors what the professors want to hear and if the students thoughts manifest in submitted papers are dissimilar from the professors they are penalized. So, while writing and thinking more important the thinking students are trying to figure out what the professors want to hear. Of course, this doesn't apply to any discipline that is a system like m…

I think you're painting the humanities with an overly broad brush, and writing off an entire field of study because of some presupposed notion.

And that you specifically exempt STEM fields from your ire has you playing right into the worst stereotypes of STEM arrogance.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#40

Charles Stross commented on these reports, http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/10/it-could... "The gamification of social conformity, overseen by an authoritarian government and mediated by nudge theory, is a thing of beauty and horror; who needs cops with nightsticks to beat up dissidents when their friends and family will give them a tongue-lashing on behalf of the government for the price of a discoun…

and here in the US its done through proxies who sue to get access to donation lists, list of those who supported petitions, access to previously courted locked documents, and such, in order to shut down speech or actions they don't like. sometimes even government agencies get involved with political activist abusing their position. so while China might codify affecting people's credit scores and "social" score make n…

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