Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#31

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #27

"For more than a year, Volkswagen executives told the Environmental Protection Agency that discrepancies between the formal air-quality tests on its diesel cars and the much higher pollution levels out on the road were the result of technical issues, not a deliberate attempt to deceive Washington officials." http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Volkswagen-... So VW is telling us that this year of lying to…

Where did they say that? They are suspending people left and right and there are investigations ongoing against Winterkorn.nright now there has nothing final been said yet.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#32

Post by lifeisstillgood » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

I had an interesting conversation with a co-worker today, about why unit-test coverage is always bad unless enforced.

I decided that it's because even though my boss and myself will have good intentions, we can both mutually decide (without ever discussing it) that the tests should slide - I will try to meet his deadline, he won't check too hard.

Unless there are credible institutions that take that decision away from us (a build bot that refuses to deploy untested code for example) we will slip towards worse.

Management does not need to apply pressure towards misbehaviour - they simply have to not constantly strive for best behaviour. Our expectations fill in the rest.

As such, we are unlikely ever to find an email from the board saying "Hans, frig the tests next week, we can't be arsed to invest in catalytic converters", but the organisation decided that anyway.

I think it's to do with lack of candour - see the Pixar book out recently

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#33

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #2

I assume they are the scapegoats.

of course your "assumption" is right.

"head of" is a low level (entry-level) mgmt position in these places. No idea why anyone would down-vote you.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#34

Post by x0x0 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #28

x0x0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I believe that there will obviously be an effort to scapegoat some low level suckers, and, as such, the whole effort is garbage. The basic principle is liar's reports are worthless. When reporters want to create a particular outcome (no executives should do hard time), what you end up with is fundamentally dishonest. And since we have reasonable doubts about the integrity of the investigation -- it's being perf…

Neither of the people mentioned are low level suckers.

they're not the ceo and/or board, are they?

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#35

Post by vonmoltke » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #25

ppod wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what other facet of human life would you be held responsible for something you had no knowledge of?

Typically ignorance of the law is not an excuse when found disobeying it, and there are more laws than any reasonable person can know.

TO both x3n0ph3n3 and mkaziz:

Knowledge of the act, not knowledge of the law. There are very few contexts in which you can be punished for not knowing an illegal act took place, and they are all situations where you should have known but were negligent.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#36

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #28

x0x0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I believe that there will obviously be an effort to scapegoat some low level suckers, and, as such, the whole effort is garbage. The basic principle is liar's reports are worthless. When reporters want to create a particular outcome (no executives should do hard time), what you end up with is fundamentally dishonest. And since we have reasonable doubts about the integrity of the investigation -- it's being perf…

Neither of the people mentioned are low level suckers.

Well, if they are trying to find scapegoats then this is expected; you can't blame a few interns and hope people will buy it.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#37

Post by semi-extrinsic » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #11

> in August 2007,[..] It rebranded the company’s diesel engine TDI—for turbocharged direct injection. Huh? VW's diesel engines had been TDIs for well over a decade at that time, for example my 1996 Golf was a TDI. The TDIs are awesome engines. I previously had a gasoline engine with the same horsepower rating, but the TDI was better in every way: unkillably high torque at low RPMs (I could go from a standing start to…

The reason people perceive diesels to be better is that they have much flatter torque vs RPM curves, so any schmuck can make them accelerate without shifting to the correct gear. If diesel engines gave better performance at the same amount of horsepowers, and used less fuel, why don't we see diesel engines used in horsepower-limited racing car classes? Why has Ferrari and Lamborghini not ever offered a single diesel engine?

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#38

Post by oldmanjay » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #24

oralhistory wrote: post #21

It's going to be ridiculous that people will go to jail for this and not any of the people responsible for the subprime mortgages.

So, I've been wondering about this. Who, exactly, would you want to see in jail for "subprime mortgages" and on what charge? I hear people say the general statement a lot, but I'm not sure who specifically they're talking about.

Obviously we need to jail all of the people who fraudulently accepted loans they knew they couldn't pay back. Obviously.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#39

Post by ppod » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #26

ppod wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what other facet of human life would you be held responsible for something you had no knowledge of?

The Selective Service frequently reminds me that ignorance of the law is no excuse to break the law.

As mentioned above, this case involves ignorance of the action, not ignorance of the law.

Re: Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engineers

#40

Post by croon » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

akamaka wrote: post #9

The rest of the commenters are quick to dismiss this article as presenting scapegoats, but I'm very keen to see more in-depth investigation about how this was orchestrated. There are a lot of different ways that this type of cheating can develop over time, and simply saying "lots of people knew must have known about this" isn't very satisfying to me. There are plenty of ways that upper management can stay in the dark…

>There are plenty of ways that upper management can stay in the dark. In the case of Deepwater Horizon, BP didn't make the decisions that lead to the blowout, but created excessive pressure for cost-cutting. In the case of Barings Bank, the managers were genuinely unaware of the rogue trader's fraud, but allowed him to bypass internal controls.

I read this as an exec saying: "Just get it done. I don't care how it's done, and I don't want to know how it's done, just do it."

May have watched too many movies, but whatever is more plausible is usually correct.