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Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

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Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#31

Post by slfnflctd »

01Michael10 wrote: post #29
slfnflctd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I completely disagree with you. I would argue that the primary reasons people fail to better fulfill their potential are lack of time, poor health and grief or hopelessness in the face of death. I also strongly believe that the epidemic of disastrous short-term thinking among us (particularly our 'leaders') is directly linked to the fact that each of us knows we're going to die all to…

Sorry but no... We have 7 billion people on this planet already and the last thing we need is for them to be living longer. You can't fulfill your potential in 75 years? Why would that change if you had 150 years? Hopelessness in the face of death? I am 46 and that is not even in my thought process yet... We don't need drugs, technology and genetic engineering to live longer. We need less poverty (better/fairer distr…

> You can't fulfill your potential in 75 years?

I would argue that no one can, if that is your 'control' group and your experimental group gets 750 years.

> We need [...] a better quality of life.

Yup. Sure do. I consider life extension a potentially important part of that.

> I don't want to live in a world of 20 billion people with little resources on a barely habitable world.

Well, neither of us can tell the future. However, I can imagine lots of scenarios where this isn't a problem, from a decline in birth rate (very likely, given well established trends), to exponentially better resource management (totally possible), to orbital habitats (less likely but not impossible).

> Hopelessness in the face of death? I am 46 and that is not even in my thought process yet... [...] Who wants to be here in 100 years anyway?

I do. I've been hopeless in the face of death since I was 19. You may want to sit down for this next revelation, but... not everyone thinks like you.

It's fine to agree to disagree, but when you start with "Sorry but no..." I can't help but be a tad annoyed.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#32

Post by saiya-jin »

slfnflctd wrote: post #25
skarap wrote: post #21

Not only it is an inevitable fact of life, it (and death) is the single most important attribute of life. Especially in the case of humans aging and death limit the amount of damage one single person can do. I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible to change. Just that it shouldn't.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I completely disagree with you. I would argue that the primary reasons people fail to better fulfill their potential are lack of time, poor health and grief or hopelessness in the face of death. I also strongly believe that the epidemic of disastrous short-term thinking among us (particularly our 'leaders') is directly linked to the fact that each of us knows we're going to die all to…

This could well be said about Hitler for example. He sure aimed high, and could achieve much more if more time was given to him (albeit ageing wasn't what stopped him, luckily).

I am slowly starting to believe the biggest threat to mankind are idealists living in their own tiny little mental bubble, far outside of harsh, unjust selfish real world. their well-intended ideas are based on some theoretical human beings that are selfless, pure hearted and will dedicate their life to help others. Usual Star trek thingie. Just that no human like that ever walked on this planet, and probably never won't (fingers crossed for that).

We have elections every 4 year to reflect just that - limit the damage that can be done by a single group of people in full control. it works, within its own limitations of course. All other options are well proven to be worse.

Next time you'll have an idea how to singlehandedly solve all mankind's problems, sit back, think about it one more time (no, 10 more times) and then go for a coffee. there has been countless individuals before with same/similar ideas. For some reason, world still works as it does.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#33

Post by saiya-jin »

01Michael10 wrote: post #29
slfnflctd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I completely disagree with you. I would argue that the primary reasons people fail to better fulfill their potential are lack of time, poor health and grief or hopelessness in the face of death. I also strongly believe that the epidemic of disastrous short-term thinking among us (particularly our 'leaders') is directly linked to the fact that each of us knows we're going to die all to…

Sorry but no... We have 7 billion people on this planet already and the last thing we need is for them to be living longer. You can't fulfill your potential in 75 years? Why would that change if you had 150 years? Hopelessness in the face of death? I am 46 and that is not even in my thought process yet... We don't need drugs, technology and genetic engineering to live longer. We need less poverty (better/fairer distr…

these movements are not about everybody living much longer, only selected wealthy elite. otherwise, this cash would be dedicated to matters you mention (and I fully agree with what you write).

Just look at people beyond 80 - most of them are a mere shadow of their former self in all aspects. Living till 120 just for the sake of living sounds more like a nightmare - that tells me they are terrified of death, meaning all are godless in their heart no matter how often they practice their religion. I welcome it (hopefully at proper age) - I will make room for another generation, just like the previous one did for me. I have my time here, and that's enough.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#34

Post by stared »

saiya-jin wrote: post #32
slfnflctd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I completely disagree with you. I would argue that the primary reasons people fail to better fulfill their potential are lack of time, poor health and grief or hopelessness in the face of death. I also strongly believe that the epidemic of disastrous short-term thinking among us (particularly our 'leaders') is directly linked to the fact that each of us knows we're going to die all to…

This could well be said about Hitler for example. He sure aimed high, and could achieve much more if more time was given to him (albeit ageing wasn't what stopped him, luckily). I am slowly starting to believe the biggest threat to mankind are idealists living in their own tiny little mental bubble, far outside of harsh, unjust selfish real world. their well-intended ideas are based on some theoretical human beings t…

It reminded my of a quote by Milan Kundera in The Unbearable Lightness of Being:

"Anyone who thinks that the Communist regimes of Central Europe are exclusively the work of criminals is overlooking a basic truth: The criminal regimes were made not by criminals but by enthusiasts convinced they had discovered the only road to paradise. They defended that road so valiantly that they were forced to execute many people. Later it became clear that there was no paradise, that the enthusiasts were therefore murderers."

I found this in other places as well - e.g. in the autobiography of Jacek Kuroń (a figure in the Polish opposition against the communist regime, even though he was himself a socialist), culminating when he was in prison with a Nazi criminal. The later, even a decade or two after the war, was still convinced that he had been doing atrocities (he had no illusions about that) for a greater good (i.e. the new Pax Romana), a good that justifies anything.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#35

Post by melling »

skarap wrote: post #21

Not only it is an inevitable fact of life, it (and death) is the single most important attribute of life. Especially in the case of humans aging and death limit the amount of damage one single person can do. I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible to change. Just that it shouldn't.

Yeah, someone always says something like this. I don't think humans living to 120-150 is going to destroy the world as long as we're productive. People like Warren Buffet or Stan Lee, for instance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Lee

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

The universe is enormous. Perhaps if we live to be old enough we'll get really bored and head off to other planets.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#36

Post by DennisP »

astazangasta wrote: post #22

This is wrong. Whales live longer because they are bigger. Larger animals have slower metabolisms and consequently longer lifespans. See this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15855403

But the article also mentions the naked mole rat, which is about the size of a mouse but lives ten times longer, and Brandt's bat, which weighs as much as a sugar cube but lives 40 years.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#37

Post by sfilipov »

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #26
nabla9 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I suspect is true but obviously can't prove: Person with completely healthy brain at age 200 would not be well functioning human being in the society. When we grow we gain experience. That experience shows as habits, perceptions, attitudes and thought trains that makes functioning in the society easy. We learn to see the world trough the past experience. All this turns from asset to liability when society where…

Society would adapt. What's with the contempt for rich people in debates like this? Being mad at rich people for living longer is no less silly than being mad at them for having cars, mobile phones, personal computers back in the day.

I believe it is. Being rich and powerful means you'll most likely want to remain such. You would act in the best of your own interest. Ageing has been the absolute guarantee that even the worst of human beings (dictators, criminals with a lot of power) will eventually lose their power thus stop damaging society as a whole.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#38

Post by 01Michael10 »

slfnflctd wrote: post #31
01Michael10 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but no... We have 7 billion people on this planet already and the last thing we need is for them to be living longer. You can't fulfill your potential in 75 years? Why would that change if you had 150 years? Hopelessness in the face of death? I am 46 and that is not even in my thought process yet... We don't need drugs, technology and genetic engineering to live longer. We need less poverty (better/fairer distr…

> You can't fulfill your potential in 75 years? I would argue that no one can, if that is your 'control' group and your experimental group gets 750 years. > We need [...] a better quality of life. Yup. Sure do. I consider life extension a potentially important part of that. > I don't want to live in a world of 20 billion people with little resources on a barely habitable world. Well, neither of us can tell the future…

>Yup. Sure do. I consider life extension a potentially important part of that.

Living longer has NOTHING to do with a better quality of life.

The person who had a good life in the early 1800's in central Europe would have been really pissed to have stayed around long enough to live during the depression and WWII in the next century.

> I do. I've been hopeless in the face of death since I was 19. You may want to sit down for this next revelation, but... not everyone thinks like you.

Really? You ever been treated for depression? Maybe you should ask your Doctor about it...

Sorry, if I am being harsh but your original comment and followup comment are very troubling to me.

Life extension is BS. Build a better, self-sustaining world for all first, then we can talk about living longer for individuals.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#39

Post by slfnflctd »

saiya-jin wrote: post #32
slfnflctd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I completely disagree with you. I would argue that the primary reasons people fail to better fulfill their potential are lack of time, poor health and grief or hopelessness in the face of death. I also strongly believe that the epidemic of disastrous short-term thinking among us (particularly our 'leaders') is directly linked to the fact that each of us knows we're going to die all to…

This could well be said about Hitler for example. He sure aimed high, and could achieve much more if more time was given to him (albeit ageing wasn't what stopped him, luckily). I am slowly starting to believe the biggest threat to mankind are idealists living in their own tiny little mental bubble, far outside of harsh, unjust selfish real world. their well-intended ideas are based on some theoretical human beings t…

> Hitler

The rise and fall of the Third Reich is a perfect example of the counterbalance effect within our species, which longevity has little bearing on-- for every psychopathic, misguided or downright evil person bent on causing suffering & death, there are people willing to stop them. These people's longevity & capabilities will increase with those of the bad actors.

> I am slowly starting to believe the biggest threat to mankind are idealists living in their own tiny little mental bubble

Without them, we wouldn't have anything resembling the technology and social progress we've seen erupting like mad for the past couple hundred years. Is it a temporary phenomenon? Will we see another massive decline into an even more terrible 'dark ages'? No one knows. But dwelling on all the things that could go wrong is not how progress happens.

> Next time you'll have an idea how to singlehandedly solve all mankind's problems, sit back, think about it...

I don't know anyone who really believes they can do this, and I certainly wouldn't trust myself for the job. I give a fairly high probability that we kill ourselves off. However, predicting the future is a fool's game, and focusing on only the negatives is the practically the definition of self-defeating behavior.

> For some reason, world still works as it does.

It absolutely does not, our predecessors from 200 years ago would find the world we live in now fundamentally different to a very jarring degree on multiple levels. You can say that our basic social and governing structures are 'the same' if you use some crude metrics, and if you proposed that we've all been bossed around by the same secret society for thousands of years I might even entertain the notion, but 'the way the world works' changes in dramatic ways constantly. If it didn't, no school would ever need to update its curriculum.

Re: Ageing is not an inevitable fact of life

#40

Post by azatris »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #15
sanxiyn wrote: post #4

Re: the title. What are inevitable facts of life?

Well, there's the laws of physics, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics pushing the arrow of time forwards. Beyond that, not much is actually inevitable: people just prefer to rationalize anything awful as Inevitable because this gives them a comforting sense of metaphysics.

2nd law of thermodynamics only applies on macroscopic scale. So not really inevitable.

Plus, the laws of physics are based on a set of axioms, which don't necessarily have to be true.

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