What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#31

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

jdp23 wrote: post #6

JesperRavn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flipside, what if Caucasian [sic] men were better than everyone in this field? Many people are happy to assert that diversity is good because it means multiple different viewpoints. What if the viewpoint of the Caucasian male[0] happened to be more suited to a particular field or company? [0] Given the obfuscation around race and culture, this might not be clear on first reading, but I am only discussing the p…

> what if Caucasian [sic] men were better than everyone in this field? That's her point: given the data, claiming it's a meritocracy implies that Caucasian men are "better" than everybody in this field. That's not a useful attitude if you're trying to improve diversity. > What if the viewpoint of the Caucasian male happened to be more suited to a particular field or company? Then the particular field or company has e…

> That's her point: given the data, claiming it's a meritocracy implies that Caucasian men are "better" than everybody in this field. That's not a useful attitude if you're trying to improve diversity.

It isn't an attitude at all. It's purely descriptive.

If you're saying it's wrong to describe it as a meritocracy because it isn't one then that's one thing. If making the industry more diverse would also make it more meritocratic then that is clearly the way forward. But then what we need to do is not to stop calling it or wanting it to be a meritocracy but rather to make it live up to its name.

On the other hand, if it is (more or less) a meritocracy already then what you're asking for is not that we stop calling it that, but that we stop it from being that. And if that's what you're saying then say it clearly so that more people can disagree with you.

> Then the particular field or company has evolved to favor Caucasian males (or if you prefer the culture that is highly correlated with being "Caucasion"). In other words, it's got embedded structural discrimination. If you want to improve diversity, that needs to be acknowledged and removed.

This is a really great exemplification of the failure of your entire line of reasoning.

Let's suppose that, culturally, the parents of white and asian males generally encourage them to study engineering at university and the parents of females and african americans generally discourage it. In this not altogether unrealistic hypothetical this explains the main cultural difference leading to the disproportionate representation.

Then companies looking to hire engineers logically require that candidates have studied engineering. You call this structural discrimination and demand that it be removed. Companies are expected to what, hire engineers who have no knowledge of engineering?

Sometimes the problem is not the culture of the industry. Sometimes the problem is the culture of the people.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#32

Post by millermp12 » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 10:24 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #9

millermp12 wrote: post #2

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

"Because creating an environment that mimics the societal advantages white men get in the US and most of the western world is infeasibly expensive"

White men. And brown men (of Indian descent). And yellow men. Or is yellow the new white?

One of those lovely orwellian sleights of pinkos every where: People of Color that for all practical purposes is a monochromatic proxy.

But yeah, racism. And all that.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#33

Post by millermp12 » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 10:27 PM UTC

striking wrote: post #20

KirinDave wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

Something something just-world fallacy. http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/06/the-belief-in-a-just-world-... > expensive With the millions of dollars from diversity initiatives, I'm sure someone could pull it off. Also, I think you're missing the entire "classism" thing. I'm Polish, and just because I'm white doesn't mean I have the world handed to me. Kind of the opposite actually, everything that I've ever gotten in lif…

That's strange. With all those polish jokes going around, I figured poles would be a belligerent and resentful underclass. Strange how that works. Same with asians. Or is yellow the new white?

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#34

Post by millermp12 » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 10:30 PM UTC

iiiggglll wrote: post #24

KirinDave wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

> If you look in the past of anyone, you will find things they regret and things that may draw censure from the pro-diversity and intersectional feminist mindset. That's natural. That's to be expected. Serious question: is it also "expected" that people will lose their jobs because of those things, like Brendan Eich?

Seriously. I mean Hitler left the pilot light on and look what happened to him.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#35

Post by millermp12 » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

jdp23 wrote: post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

Actually, you will find it is asians as a percentage of population who are over represented.

Good thing mitch is Mr money bags. With her math, she'd run a 7-11 into the ground.

It's kind of like my hebraic friend who conflated the UVA rape hoax with slavery by exclaiming on his Facebook page: "you don't reform a plantation you burn it down." I guess that's what 10 years of African studies (or diversity training) gets you.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#36

Post by millermp12 » Sat, Sep 12, 2015, 10:39 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #10

throwit542 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White men are over represented at large tech companies? White people make up around 80% of the U.S. population [0]. They make up less than 60% of tech workers at Google[1] and less than 55% of tech workers at Facebook[2]. That's underrepresented. Asian Americans make up less than 5% of the U.S. population[0], but almost 35% of tech workers at Google[1] and 36% of tech employees at Facebook[2]. That's over representat…

Your argument is using some old data and substantially flawed reasoning and I'll let other people talk about it. But there is one thing I want to point out: It is possible to be both marginalized in one aspect and privileged in another. It is definitely the case for Asian Americans in tech. Very few will say they're not (in aggregate, individual experiences vary of course!) better off than other people of color in th…

Is it too much to ask social justice warriors to refrain from nonsensical gum flapping like "intersectional feminism?" It the kind of thing stupid people say to sound intelligent and a complete giveaway

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#37

Post by PopeOfNope » Sun, Sep 13, 2015, 1:48 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #9

millermp12 wrote: post #2

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity for everyone in society.

Except for white people, which is why the parent is worried about character assassination. It's a real worry when building a business these days. There's no amount of compliance to progressive ideals that will protect you if you have light colored skin.

Progressivism isn't a fad. It's the consistent direction of society since the dark ages.

Yes, it is. The pendulum swings one way for a little while, then it swings the other way. It's been happening that way for thousands of years.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#38

Post by millermp12 » Sun, Sep 13, 2015, 2:59 AM UTC

Freada says she's a researcher, all about the numbers, etc.

If we're going to talk about who is over-represented, I've got to ask: is it early onset senile dementia or the strong contact high in Berkeley, but (and I know this is impolitic) how does she overlook, ahem, the Jews?

I mean, pound for pound, they are the most over-represented group not just in elite SV circles, but every human intellectual endeavor worth writing about. So shouldn't the diversity initiative really be framed as "how do we get more gentiles in tech?"

In that light, and nothing against Sam Altman who is totes awesome, but by what metric is replacing Paul with Sam at YC a move toward greater diversity? Does the tribe get a special dispensation? Do I need a graduate degree in African studies (or per another comment here "intersectional feminism") to grok it?

To be clear, this is perfectly fine with me. But, by analogy to their reasoning, should this disparity be attributed to a shortcoming among gentiles? Something exogenous (bad bagels, loose circumcision sticthes)? Or is it "structural jewism" and jews have more (re)education about their "jewish privilege."

I hope framing the conversation in this facetious way illuminates how utterly imbecilic this social justice boondoggle is. Remember forced busing? I'm sure the Kapors would have been big fans (out in Gross Pointe); remember Kansas City ($2B dollars spent on predominantly black schools over 10 years)? Remember the Meyerhoff foundation (of course not, Mitch will hope you forget his too in ten years time).

But by all means, keep it up. Look what happened with SCA-5 and how fast Sen Lee's head spun when his asian constituency got whiff of his flacid support of a favorite social justice theme.

As far as waiting for white guys at VC and tech firms to die off, do not ask for whom the bell tolls, my dewy-eyed bobos...

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#39

Post by dang » Sun, Sep 13, 2015, 4:16 AM UTC

millermp12 wrote: post #38

Freada says she's a researcher, all about the numbers, etc. If we're going to talk about who is over-represented, I've got to ask: is it early onset senile dementia or the strong contact high in Berkeley, but (and I know this is impolitic) how does she overlook, ahem, the Jews? I mean, pound for pound, they are the most over-represented group not just in elite SV circles, but every human intellectual endeavor worth w…

We've banned this account. Hacker News is for good-faith discussion, not race trolling.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#40

Post by millermp12 » Sun, Sep 13, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

Last post had a little too much mustard for the censors, but I'm persistent!

Freada says she's a "researcher" yet no where do we get an operational definition of "representation" so we know who really is, and isn't over-represented.

But I'll go out on a limb and say employment in tech per capita. I'll go further to say that Asians and Indians are more over-represented than Caucasians.

But clearly the Kapors have some other definition in mind. How else do they frame Paul Graham's replacement by Sam Altman as an increase in diversity? Are young people under-represented? Are Jews under-represented?

Maybe their definition includes a weight, say a Kapor Grievance Index. In the case of Jews, it's unbounded, so they can never be under-represented. Indians and Asians are weighted using a complex and proprietary algorithm (similar to the sausage making at top university admissions committees).

So that leaves WASPs (see tribal exemption above per Altman at YC).

Maybe someone else can shed more light on the matter.