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Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

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Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#31
post #2

Not to be too harsh on Jeff Atwood - as he has decades more experience than myself. But does anyone else feel that this blog post is a bit out of line? In short when John Gruber gives the code out under a BSD thatis a gift to whoever wants to use it - and it gives them near-complete freedom to use Markdown however they like. I don't see why on top of this gift he is in any way obliged to provide 'leadership' or 'dire…

When you release code, there's an implicit commitment of improving and maintaining it, or at least finding someone who will when you can't anymore, unless you say otherwise from the start. The attention and effort others invest in your project needs to be respected. You do have an ethical obligation to follow through on the project, at least in my view. Feeling no obligation towards your user base just because one of…

I disagree. When you release code, you release code. Improvement and maintenance are not things that you imply you'll give. Especially under a BSD license.

If you gift someone a laptop, you're not bound to help them with every problem they encounter.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#32
post #2

Not to be too harsh on Jeff Atwood - as he has decades more experience than myself. But does anyone else feel that this blog post is a bit out of line? In short when John Gruber gives the code out under a BSD thatis a gift to whoever wants to use it - and it gives them near-complete freedom to use Markdown however they like. I don't see why on top of this gift he is in any way obliged to provide 'leadership' or 'dire…

When you release code, there's an implicit commitment of improving and maintaining it, or at least finding someone who will when you can't anymore, unless you say otherwise from the start. The attention and effort others invest in your project needs to be respected. You do have an ethical obligation to follow through on the project, at least in my view. Feeling no obligation towards your user base just because one of…

Have to disagree. Releasing code doesn't imply any obligation to that code. If it did, the volume of open source code out there would be a fraction of what it is right now.

People are constantly changing directions, and constantly trying out new things which may or may not be useful to them in the future. We're all better off if that code gets released. In turn, we can't expect people to support code they may no longer use, or may not have ever really cared about in the first place.

It should be clear that running an open source project is something completely different. If you make an attempt to start a community, you probably should keep up with that community, or at least responsibly exit it. But people usually build communities around things that are really important to them, or that they have an ulterior motive for advocating (not necessarily a bad motive, just one beyond pure open source).

From where I'm sitting, if Gruber isn't adding anything to the community, he should have been made irrelevant by that community.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#33
post #2

Not to be too harsh on Jeff Atwood - as he has decades more experience than myself. But does anyone else feel that this blog post is a bit out of line? In short when John Gruber gives the code out under a BSD thatis a gift to whoever wants to use it - and it gives them near-complete freedom to use Markdown however they like. I don't see why on top of this gift he is in any way obliged to provide 'leadership' or 'dire…

I agree. I don't see why Jeff didn't just start a GitHub project himself as a new starting point for the community.

My guess is that this article is a precursor to doing just that. I expect an announcement from Jeff pretty soon about a new markdown project on Github. I don't agree with his point of view in this article, however it does sound like he knows the project pretty well and would be suited to getting it rolling again.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#34
post #3

"Item #3, the conversion of returns to linebreaks, is somewhat more debatable. I'm on the fence on that one, but I do believe it's significant enough to warrant an explicit choice either way." Really? Has anyone ever typed stuff, hit enter once, then typed more stuff, ever not intended a line break? "Oh no, I kept hitting Enter between words instead of using the space-bar! If only pressing Enter was interpreted as a…

I agree. This is frustrating in many markup formats. A carriage return should turn into a br tag and two carriage returns should start a new paragraph. Simple, intuitive, where's the problem??

IMO any situation where that behaviour is undesirable is an edge case and should require more effort to work around.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#35
I'm all for the first 2 proposed changes. They would very welcome by almost everyone. But that 3rd idea.... oh boy.

> It should be a standard configurable option in every Markdown implementation that you can switch on or off depending on the intended audience.

I hope Atwood never actually tries this. Markdown should not have any configurable options. Any attempts to augment Markdown like this should be clearly labeled as such. One way or the other the spec should make a single choice and stick to it. If someone wants something different they should create something different and use it, rather than confuse people who use "Markdown" on several sites and have to remember which options each has. ... yuck!

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#36
post #2

Not to be too harsh on Jeff Atwood - as he has decades more experience than myself. But does anyone else feel that this blog post is a bit out of line? In short when John Gruber gives the code out under a BSD thatis a gift to whoever wants to use it - and it gives them near-complete freedom to use Markdown however they like. I don't see why on top of this gift he is in any way obliged to provide 'leadership' or 'dire…

"as he has decades more experience than myself"

Decades? I doubt that.

And no, you're not being too harsh. In fact, I think you might be too kind.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure of the origin of the convention, but using two newlines consistently to mark new paragraphs (rather than indentation or just one newline) seems awfully common to me in technical writing. So the Markdown rule has always made sense to me. Or to put it another way, it was immediately natural to do it that way. Edit : to answer the question of the comment below this, poems need to be handled specially in Mar…

But what if you want a newline for a reason other than for paragraphs, like a poem or something?

Then you end the line in two spaces.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#38
post #9

1. This article is a bit too personal, 100% agree on that. 2. The best thing Gruber could do is pass on "ownership" of the project to someone else. He is under no obligation to do so, but it seems like that would essentially solve the problem, while requiring almost no effort from him.

What's the "problem" here? The bugs Atwood is talking about are minor, and their solutions don't require drastic incompatible changes to Markdown-the-language.

The issue here is that Gruber seems to be satisfied with Markdown-the-language, and Atwood (and many others) aren't.

Obviously, Atwood could just create a new markup language derived from Markdown (like MultiMarkdown). But then he can't call it Markdown. He wants the best of both worlds, and he's not going to get it. And that's his problem, not ours.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#39
post #2

Not to be too harsh on Jeff Atwood - as he has decades more experience than myself. But does anyone else feel that this blog post is a bit out of line? In short when John Gruber gives the code out under a BSD thatis a gift to whoever wants to use it - and it gives them near-complete freedom to use Markdown however they like. I don't see why on top of this gift he is in any way obliged to provide 'leadership' or 'dire…

If Gruber had released markdown and explicitly walked away from it, then yes, we would only be justified in appreciating his gift.

(And I think anyone seriously using markdown has to conclude he did essentially release and walk away from the perl implementation. Aside from it being 6 to 12 times faster, there is no reason now to use it rather than the Text::MarkDown in CPAN -- which fixes its many, many, crippling bugs and maintains perfect compatability.)

However, somehow or other, we've gotten the idea that Gruber is responsible for at least the ongoing development of the spec. Atwood excerpts a recent mail from Gruber where he's clearly still trying to do that. I sorta get the impression Gruber wants to keep the markdown spec exactly as it is, although the last time he surfaced on mailing list it was to say that a proposed addition looked like a (rare) good idea.

At least the internal underlines issue makes markdown a real PITA to use for any technical writing, and really needs to be fixed in the spec. The URL thing is debatable; while Atwood's newline suggestion misses the point of markdown. The risk is clearly that markdown will fragment with different sites handling these issues differently. There are many better ways to manage specs than what Gruber is doing.

Re: Responsible Open Source Code Parenting

#40
Atwood's blog post is an example of why I sometimes say that the main point of inventing "open source" was to turn the free software movement into the gratis labor movement.

Atwood's account of history here is misleading, judging by the mailing list he quotes. He is unfair to accuse Gruber of being "passive aggressive". I'll talk at the end about why the accusation is part of the gratis labor movement.

The discussions started in February of 2008. Joseph Lorenzo Hall asked if anyone has considered forking Markdown.pl "hopefully with Gruber's blessing".

In reply, Tomas Doran mentions that maintains a CPAN module called Text::Markdown and that he would like this to be the fork or, "if [he] can get John to agree and approve - [to] become the 'official' maintained version which is linked from daringfireball [Gruber's web site]."

In short, the question arose which we can paraphrase: "Would Gruber give his name to bless Text::Markdown as the successor project of his earlier work?"

Gruber responded fairly directly that he does not like the way Doran has maintained Text::Markup (and he gives technical reasons why). He asserts that he would not like that to become the 'official' version of Markup.

From that, Atwood somehow gets "passive aggressive".

Why is that a "gratis labor" play? Atwood asserts that Gruber now has a problem and that he would not have that problem if between 2004 and 2008 he had given away labor to manage an open source community. That Gruber did not give away such labor makes him a "negligent parent". Evidence of the bad parenting is to be found in Gruber's alleged bad attitude, visible in his "passive aggression".

We ought to ask what effects such pronouncements have, especially coming from a prominent blogger. I can think of two that are quite conceivable (and jive with my own experience): First, let's suppose that Gruber decides to apply for a job somewhere and happens to mention on his resume that he has some experience with free software or "open source" projects. Recruiters are often advised to scan for articles like Atwoods to weed out (or in) resumes. In this case, the accusation that Gruber is a "negligent parent" with a bad attitude hurts his chances of getting hired. It especially hurts that this accusation comes from Atwood. Second, consider what happens if Gruber wants now to start a project and solicit public volunteers. The first time he makes a project decision someone doesn't like, there's every chance that someone opposed will say something like "This is no different from how Gruber handled Markup.pl. We should just fork away from him and move on." Yes, that kind of thing really happens.

So the Atwood's of the world are creating and helping to enforce a set of social norms within the so-called "open source community" in which failing to give away labor upon demand, or standing up for a technical decision when it is inconvenient for others - these are grounds for marking and ostracism.

Quite absent from Atwood's hit piece is any consideration of why Gruber was inactive on Markdown.pl for those years or why declining to endorse Doran's fork might be quite appropriate. Atwood just wants to generate some smoke, it seems.

Turnabout is fair play? Perhaps Mr. Atwood should next answer the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question )

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