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Why is Bitcoin forking?

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Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#31
post #15

For people who have not been following along, the Bitcoin block size debate has been very intense and pulled out a lot of interesting psychology from the Bitcoin community. Most of the core devs of Bitcoin are strongly opposed to increasing the blocksize to 8mb. 2 people in particular, Mike Hearn and Gavin Andresen, have been making very strong political pushes to get the majority of Bitcoin users to favor their bloc…

> having a qualified opinion on something like the blocksize debate likely requires around a year of studying the academic properties of Bitcoin. I do not like statements like that -- it basically says unless you know as much as me (and if you knew as much as me you'd agree with me), you can not have an opinion. It is pretty exclusionary. Most people can get up to speed fairly fast than that if they have access to go…

I have absolutely no horse in this race (I'm here for the schadenfreude), but to be honest, when it comes to deeply technical decisions, I think this is entirely fair.

I wouldn't expect Linus to listen to my opinions about the Linux task scheduler.

Why should the Bitcoin community listen to some random guy's unsupported opinions about block size? This isn't about politics or being nice and listening to everyone. This is about making a massively technical choice and it better be made based on solid technical reasoning, not on a desire to be happy and inclusive.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#32
post #15

For people who have not been following along, the Bitcoin block size debate has been very intense and pulled out a lot of interesting psychology from the Bitcoin community. Most of the core devs of Bitcoin are strongly opposed to increasing the blocksize to 8mb. 2 people in particular, Mike Hearn and Gavin Andresen, have been making very strong political pushes to get the majority of Bitcoin users to favor their bloc…

I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym-k5viJ7tA&t=1m5s.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#33

This is common with many things now. The people in the know are treated like gods that cant be wrong. The global warming debate comes to mind.

The global warming debate is long settled by pretty much everyone doing research in that area. If that is an example to your case, you didn't make it very well.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#34

This is common with many things now. The people in the know are treated like gods that cant be wrong. The global warming debate comes to mind.

I don't see the connection to the global warming debate. Clearly no-one listens to the so called "gods" in the global warning debate even though the consequences become clearer and clearer every year.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#35
post #17
post #13

For more context, here's a list of posts by Mike giving some background and some more thoughts: The capacity cliff: https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-capacity-cliff-586d1bf771... Crash landing: https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32 On consensus and forks: https://medium.com/@octskyward/on-consensus-and-forks-c6a050... They were quite useful for someone not familiar with the topic.

Let's balance the discussion out a bit: Greg Maxwell's thoughts (small blocks): http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090559/ About internet bandwidth growth (~neutral): http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=493 An attempt at a well-rounded overview (~neutral): http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=535 some thoughts by bittorrent creator Bram Cohen (small blocks): https://medium.com/@bramcohen/bitcoin-s-ironic-crisis-32226a..…

Thank you! I was sorely missing the other side of the discussion.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#36
post #15

For people who have not been following along, the Bitcoin block size debate has been very intense and pulled out a lot of interesting psychology from the Bitcoin community. Most of the core devs of Bitcoin are strongly opposed to increasing the blocksize to 8mb. 2 people in particular, Mike Hearn and Gavin Andresen, have been making very strong political pushes to get the majority of Bitcoin users to favor their bloc…

"Dr. Hoenikker used to say that any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan." - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

The argument that "I understand this and you don't, so you don't get a vote" seems like a lazy way to suppress democratic process. A better alternative is, "This might seem complicated, but really it's not; here's a simple but complete explanation to help you make an informed decision."

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#37
post #20
post #7

This was bound to happen sooner or later. Good that is "only" about something relatively minor like this, so that the community can practice handling it. Maybe later there will be a conflict where serious money is on the line and it would be bad if that was the first one. I mean this change will affect miner revenue, but transactions fees are still completely insignificant compared to block rewards.

I thought that if the split does happen all existing coins will be spendable on both sides of the split. Does that not count as 'serious money' on the line?!

That is just like a stock spinoff, it doesn't favour one group of users over another. And the actual forking of the chain (so far only the software has been forked) is some time in the future so everyone will have time to prepare.

For an example of something that would favour one group of users over another, we can take a change of block reward decay schedule. If it decays faster, old users are favoured. If it decays slower, new users and miners are favoured.

An increase in blocksize later on, when fees are majority of mining revenue would favour users over miners.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a qualified opinion on something like the blocksize debate likely requires around a year of studying the academic properties of Bitcoin. I do not like statements like that -- it basically says unless you know as much as me (and if you knew as much as me you'd agree with me), you can not have an opinion. It is pretty exclusionary. Most people can get up to speed fairly fast than that if they have access to go…

I have absolutely no horse in this race (I'm here for the schadenfreude), but to be honest, when it comes to deeply technical decisions, I think this is entirely fair. I wouldn't expect Linus to listen to my opinions about the Linux task scheduler. Why should the Bitcoin community listen to some random guy's unsupported opinions about block size? This isn't about politics or being nice and listening to everyone. This…

The person rejecting your opinions would probably be Ingo Molnár anyway, assuming you get as far.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#39
post #36
post #15

For people who have not been following along, the Bitcoin block size debate has been very intense and pulled out a lot of interesting psychology from the Bitcoin community. Most of the core devs of Bitcoin are strongly opposed to increasing the blocksize to 8mb. 2 people in particular, Mike Hearn and Gavin Andresen, have been making very strong political pushes to get the majority of Bitcoin users to favor their bloc…

"Dr. Hoenikker used to say that any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan." - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle The argument that "I understand this and you don't, so you don't get a vote" seems like a lazy way to suppress democratic process. A better alternative is, "This might seem complicated, but really it's not; here's a simple but complete explanation to help you make a…

In theory, I agree. In practice, it took me months of people explaining crypto & blockchain to me before I could claim I even partially understood how bitcoin transactions worked.

Re: Why is Bitcoin forking?

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a qualified opinion on something like the blocksize debate likely requires around a year of studying the academic properties of Bitcoin. I do not like statements like that -- it basically says unless you know as much as me (and if you knew as much as me you'd agree with me), you can not have an opinion. It is pretty exclusionary. Most people can get up to speed fairly fast than that if they have access to go…

I have absolutely no horse in this race (I'm here for the schadenfreude), but to be honest, when it comes to deeply technical decisions, I think this is entirely fair. I wouldn't expect Linus to listen to my opinions about the Linux task scheduler. Why should the Bitcoin community listen to some random guy's unsupported opinions about block size? This isn't about politics or being nice and listening to everyone. This…

> I wouldn't expect Linus to listen to my opinions about the Linux task scheduler.

Why not? As an end-user your opinion is very important, you're the one that has to live with the detached decisions that Linus makes regarding the scheduler.

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