Would Chinese-style education work on British kids? • Hacker News Board

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#31

Post by fspeech » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:07 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #13

ausjke wrote: post #8

Chinese education kills the real genius, but does make the ordinary kids a skillful engineer(relatively), so the best kids still want to go overseas while the rest can do math better than any other west countries after repeatedly practice. The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage), however the demanding on the average kids are too little, many kids gave up or dr…

I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote, The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage) and I would like to ask, where does that happen? What place in the United States allows the top kids to fly freely? I ask, because I interact online most regularly with parents who have children identified as gifted children through regional Talent Sear…

Yes I can confirm that US high schools (public ones at least) do not let their top kids fly freely. I have a high schooler who made USAJMO as an eighth grader (and later USAMO/MOSP as a ninth grader). The high school, which is a top area school, just did not care and insisted that he took Algebra II with the rest of the 9th graders. The school counselor might have been well meaning but was more likely just following the rules. At least the teacher had the wisdom to excuse him from homework after recognizing that he is the real deal, but the system is inflexible enough that he had to sit through the class instead of getting adjusted to one more appropriate for him. His friend who is a national winner of USAMO had to do the same thing in a different school, to the annoyance of the algebra teacher there (how do you even teach a USAMO winner in an Algebra II class?).

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#32

Post by DogeLord » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 4:54 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #13

ausjke wrote: post #8

Chinese education kills the real genius, but does make the ordinary kids a skillful engineer(relatively), so the best kids still want to go overseas while the rest can do math better than any other west countries after repeatedly practice. The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage), however the demanding on the average kids are too little, many kids gave up or dr…

I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote, The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage) and I would like to ask, where does that happen? What place in the United States allows the top kids to fly freely? I ask, because I interact online most regularly with parents who have children identified as gifted children through regional Talent Sear…

I believe when he said "fly freely", it compares to countries like India/China.

And you said the US system underperforms for all learner in its care.. Well you might have been right technically, in the way that exercising 30 minutes a day is not as good as say a bodybuilder's workout routine.

Personal experience here-> The High School I went to in China has this following schedule- Weekday 6am wake up, 7am early self study/english pronunciation practice, 8~5 classes, 5~7 break time, 730~10 homework/ask teachers stuff, 1030 go to bed. Saturday Morning to noon, none stop exams to evaluate our progress. Go home in the afternoon. Sunday Return school before 7pm

Although this is my personal experience, almost all the competitive high schools in china follows similar schedule.

In comparison the US system grant much more freedom, I moved there at 10th grade and I must say it is much more liberating in choosing what I wanted to do. I do not think many schools in China let you pick the courses you want to study, or have as many (or any) college level courses. And for once starting your own club/participating in athletic activities is no longer "waste of time" and is recognized by college administration.

I am only comparing High schools because that's the only system I have expediences of on both sides.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#33

Post by SteveMilner » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 10:59 AM UTC

It is over 40 years since I left school. The most striking thing about the programme is that that some of the children have learning difficulties. No, they're not ESN, but lack manners, so they eat / drink / chatter / giggle in class, and are astonished that this behaviour is regarded as unacceptable. Tell them the rules, and if they unable to comply, exclude them so that they don't distract others (teachers and pupils).

Then discuss philosophy of 'I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I understand' etc.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#34

Post by sheepmullet » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:25 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #19

I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork.…

It looks like you were brought up with Western education and Chinese style discipline. I had much the same education as you, sans the discipline. And my father growing up had the discipline without the education.

So I find it a bit odd that you then say "I think - given my experience - that the "Chinese" have a much better handle on how to educate."

Going through point by point:

- complain about clothing

Discipline. Chinese.

- In time, I got the chance to co-design my curriculum on the elective level

Education. Western.

- Interestingly, my school day finished at around 2pm (started at 8)

Education. Western.

- The goal was understanding, not memorization

Education. Western.

- complain about dullness.

Discipline. Chinese.

> The basic question here is - are the student's ideas worth hearing ?

Actually, that is rather besides the point. Being able to discuss ideas, go out on a limb, work well in groups, etc are important skills. Providing feedback to the teacher is critical in a group setting. Even incorrect ideas put forward by a student can get the other students to really think about the topic.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#35

Post by PAC1960 » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #6

Funny. Some brits look up to the Chinese system to educate their kids, but come time for university and every single Chinese parent would rather their kid go the oxbridge route than any chinese school. Perhaps this article should be more explicit in that it involves comparison between CHinese practices and those of a subset of British schools. I went to a british-style boys school, a rugby school. It was nothing like…

Was it St. Bede's, Manchester? Some good schools exist...but it is purely reliant on the supply of good teachers which may only constitute 20% of those that qualify.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#36

Post by random_2azkXJ » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #6

Funny. Some brits look up to the Chinese system to educate their kids, but come time for university and every single Chinese parent would rather their kid go the oxbridge route than any chinese school. Perhaps this article should be more explicit in that it involves comparison between CHinese practices and those of a subset of British schools. I went to a british-style boys school, a rugby school. It was nothing like…

"every single Chinese parent would rather their kid go the oxbridge route than any chinese school" - citation needed!

The oxbridge (as in "the bridge of the ox", a very logical outcome from "the ford of the ox" and "the bridge of the cam") are more of commercial enterprises than teaching institutions, and the preference for them are first and foremost the result of commercial advertising. The business model in here is to attract a great mass of pupils, be very selective about it (in order to have high-profile prospects), be very expensive (because the networking happening there must worth the hassle), then selling the achievements of these high-potenial strictly-preselected material to others as the results of its own merit. The research, the eccentric curriculum, or any other quirk that sets these institutions apart from others are just secondary. That is the naked truth.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#37

Post by userulluipeste » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #19

I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork.…

"it would have been completely inappropriate and unacceptable for me to" "complain about dullness" "Learning was the entire orientation; if it was dull, it was dull: sucking it up and moving on was the way to go."

The learning was the primary orientation in my education too, but apart from mental discipline training happening with "sucking up and moving on", I wonder - wouldn't have been best if the process have been more tailored to my capabilities as a child? It's like optimizing for the underlying platform, making it less wasteful (on energy consumed on concentration).

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#38

Post by pnathan » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 3:15 PM UTC

userulluipeste wrote: post #37

pnathan wrote: post #19

I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork.…

"it would have been completely inappropriate and unacceptable for me to" "complain about dullness" "Learning was the entire orientation; if it was dull, it was dull: sucking it up and moving on was the way to go." The learning was the primary orientation in my education too, but apart from mental discipline training happening with "sucking up and moving on", I wonder - wouldn't have been best if the process have been…

Looking back, I think we could have heavily optimized towards what is called today 'gifted and talented' in some areas of my education. That was kind of out of our world at that time. I particularly recall drills in math and recapitulating the same subject year after year (this was entirely the design of the curriculum - Saxon Math "Original"). It's important to note that I pursued other interests after schoolwork was done, and it was usually wrapped up by 3pm after 4th grade or so. This gave me, in effect, hours of self-teaching when I got interested in a subject (or hours of Legos, fooling around outside, and reading fiction). I self-taught DOS, QBASIC and C++, for instance. It was undirected, so not as fast and as thorough as a good curriculum, but it did serve. In general (maybe 90% of the time?), however, I liked school, outside of the part where it wasn't letting me play. My mother generally chose intellectually challenging curricula (one particularly notable example would be the US history course - 3 separate curricula combined into one, one each from conservative, centrist, and progressive viewpoints), upon which I found some meat to entertain my mind.

What I can attest to strongly is this: my k-12 teaching was far closer to college and the work world than anything I've ever read about from US public schools.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#39

Post by userulluipeste » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #38

userulluipeste wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it would have been completely inappropriate and unacceptable for me to" "complain about dullness" "Learning was the entire orientation; if it was dull, it was dull: sucking it up and moving on was the way to go." The learning was the primary orientation in my education too, but apart from mental discipline training happening with "sucking up and moving on", I wonder - wouldn't have been best if the process have been…

Looking back, I think we could have heavily optimized towards what is called today 'gifted and talented' in some areas of my education. That was kind of out of our world at that time. I particularly recall drills in math and recapitulating the same subject year after year (this was entirely the design of the curriculum - Saxon Math "Original"). It's important to note that I pursued other interests after schoolwork wa…

Your home schooling was already then, as I come to understand it, (at least in some regards) a very good implementation of optimized teaching. This lets me with the conclusion that some of the didactic material will just remain dull for someone regardless of the effort involved from the teacher's part.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#40

Post by pnathan » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #34

pnathan wrote: post #19

I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork.…

It looks like you were brought up with Western education and Chinese style discipline. I had much the same education as you, sans the discipline. And my father growing up had the discipline without the education. So I find it a bit odd that you then say "I think - given my experience - that the "Chinese" have a much better handle on how to educate." Going through point by point: - complain about clothing Discipline.…

I would say, rather, that I was brought up on principles that emphasized discipline, along with intellectual freedom and curiosity. The implementation of this emphasized discipline as I was a young child, then shifting towards freedom as I got old enough to have useful impact on curricula development. Neither of those precisely map to the US or the Chinese norms.