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The Unemployable Programmer

unemployable.pen.io

291–300 of 464 posts

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#291
post #14

I sympathize with your trouble but what you describe seems exaggerated to me. If within a year you made only a thousand dollars, why didn't you spend more time working on a side project, or sharpening your skills? Maybe the ones you currently have are not much in demand? Also, freelancing sites do have a lot of low quality jobs, but if you spend some time digging around you can find decent jobs; e.g. I, a poor countr…

If it seems exaggerated, that's because it is. Outside of NYC and SF, there's basically nowhere in the US where businesses wouldn't hire a competent programmer on the spot.

If you actually believe that, I pity you.

The reality is that CEOs talk up a shortage while holding salaries absolutely steady and even while laying off thousands of programmers:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-201508...

The reality is also that a 40+, non-degreed programmer will have their resume thrown away by the first line HR people in 95%+ of cases. Not qualified for senior jobs due to lack of a degree; not qualified for entry-level jobs due to lack of a degree and age.

If you want to be educated on this, feel free to make up a fake resume of a 40+, no-degree programmer and shop it around. Make a list of any responses you get. You can keep that list on an index card.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the quick answer is JavaScript is needed everywhere. I'd bone up on that, and learn angular inside and out as well as a couple of other JavaScript frameworks for good measure. That's what gets me hired as a C# developer in php, ruby, and java shops where I can then gradually show them I know UX, devops, and other little valuable things. The trick is that the hot thing in short supply will change this time next y…

Hence the reason I said "web and mobile development-centric" in the post that started this sub-thread. I'm actually writing a UI in Angular right now or a Java-based system I wrote. I hate it. It is a pain I'm going through because I need a UI for this prototype, but there is no way I would want to do this full-time.

Honestly I don't tend to use angular with pure .net stuff. Razor and Linq handle all the templating for a single page app and data piping. Really all I'd add to the standard environment is something like this ( https://github.com/SignalR/SignalR ) so you can get real time data and refresh the page without postback.

For node work you really need it, but if you're using .net you're running a framework on top of your framework. So kind of more of a pain in the ass than you need to deal with for most things.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#293

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

Agreed. We're pickier. I work on application that ditributes about 1E9 euros a year (so it's smaller than a bank but that's not exactly a small application either). We're maintenance-mode now. When I hire, I need : some who : - can actually code (many of the applicants can write code, but they don't know important things like : how does a hashtable work, recursivity, etc) - can write reliable code (i.e. ability to test, ability to imagine failure before they happen) - can write readable code (because you knw, we're working in a team) - can handle harsh customer (because when you fail, well, they're not happy)

believe me, we don't have millions of those ready. Many can code, but code in "real" life where you don't have luch room to learn from mistakes, well, there ain't many...

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been with teams who wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't finish a degree. It doesn't matter which kind, but they had to have proven they could do the degree.

That's a double edged sword I guess. I chose my school and degree based around staying close to home to help with my disabled brother. It turned out to be a poor decision, academically that is, as the course combined software engineering students with business I.T and we weren't covering anything I didn't already know. I got a summer placement writing code and realised I was learning much more during that time, so wh…

It's not about the hiring team looking for anything specific that a degree could give you, it's that they've bought into the old idea that the piece of paper is a hard wall that separates them from the homeless guy outside. The corollary of "I'm superior and secure in my position because of this degree" is "someone without a degree is inferior". Fear and self-doubt are the only reasons that anyone requires unrelated degrees.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#295

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

I thought the same thing, but my guess is the author is from Europe. Maybe it's completely different there?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#296
Not a fan of this. I think the OP exhibits some toxic mindsets.

> As a final station, I'd like to describe what online freelancer markets look like for people like me. On freelancer.com and oDesk, you compete with hundreds of lowest-wage programmers from third world countries for exceedingly crappy "projects". It's an unmitigated race to the bottom.

Why does the OP feel entitled to not have to compete with others? Why should he be given a "not crappy" job? Because you were born in the US?

Fuck that attitude. Here's what happened. The OP stagnated, and other parts of the world didn't. Being from a first world country does not make you special. And it no longer shields you from the brutal realities that most of the world goes through with respect to human competition.

> Maybe even more alarming, the nature of these jobs has changed, too. A year ago, you could sell some landing pages and some basic web programming. Today, almost every inquiry you get is for some illicit script to scrape social media sites.

Yes, the world moves on, the nature of work changes, and things that were valuable 10 years ago become commodities. Being a programmer means being able to program many different things; you know how demands are changing, so either adapt or die. Or switch what field you work in. Construction workers can get $35 an hour, and it's better for your body.

> I feel obsolete, and I'm afraid it's starting to show outwardly.

Woe is me.

> While I was asleep at the wheel during my generic office job, the world moved on without me.

So what are you going to do about it?

> Being able to get work in this field without a fancy background is still possible, but only if you have the right connections.

So work at making those connections.

> Personally, I will just keep looking. Maybe something will turn up.

No, don't do that, it's the same shit that isn't working for you. Go to some meetups, conferences, hackathons, etc. Take a part-time job doing something else to be able to afford the time to build the connections you see as being so important. Buy books and read tutorials (and build side projects) regarding new technologies you want/need to learn. Hey I'm not saying this is the best plan, but any plan is better than no plan.

Or are "connections" your way of excusing your ego for slumping in life? I can blame others for having good genetics all day long, but I'm still going to go to the gym to improve my physique.

---

Be proactive when shit hits the fan, when you miss out, when you make mistakes. There is no alternative.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#297
post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

Completely off topic, but I'm dying to know- how concerned are you about the OPM hack?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#298
Being unemployable is fucking great. You don't need to put up with any of the bullshit that comes with the 9-5. My holy shit moment was when I found a major corporation was willing to pay my year's salary as a dev for a software I created. You mean I just sell you this license at the cost of my entire annual salary as a dev without having to work 9-5 for the entire year? Fuck yeah I'll do it. An interviewer might not even have noted the sheer challenge behind designing & shipping by oneself with no pay for over a year (obviously rote memorization is of much more value), but somebody at some large company found it valuable enough to pay the equivalent of my year's salary had I been a developer. The best part is there's very little maintenance or cost involved. Just answer email and provide support. After the sale, the hard part of the work is done. I guess I could get somebody to manage the after-sales part but I really enjoy talking to my customers and the greatest thrill that it's helping their business.

Since then I've been practically unemployable. It makes no sense if I could make an entire year's worth of salary after a few phone calls and a quick demo. The only downside to this is that you have a lot of idle time. Obviously you can't do sales 24/7 (I wish I could). I'm still trying to figure out how to best use my idle time instead of obsessively commenting on HN or Reddit or playing Counterstrike. Get out? Travel? I don't know yet.

You can do this too. You absolutely can. Don't sell yourself short so you could have a 'secure' job. Don't become a slave to appease others and censor yourself to keep a job. Your time is the single most valuable asset in your life. DO NOT SELL IT FOR CHEAP. Control your destiny. This is capitalism. This is North America.

I had too much coffee, I'm out. mic drop

TL;DR: Get your money's worth. Don't waste time applying and going to interviews for a 9-5. It's not for you.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#299
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i would expect that an older person with more battle tested experience ought to fair better tbh, so i don't get it with the agism. Unless the position is meant for a high strung startup where you're expected to basically live there, with no dependents to look after etc.

There are several reasons younger developers are sometimes valued over older candidates. Work life balance is part of it, but there are other factors at play. This is a pretty well trodden topic, and you can find a lot of the typical discussion points by Googling. A common explanation, for instance, is that experience in tech doesn't accrue a ton of value due to tech obsolescence - 20 Cobol experience doesn't really…

It speaks to a common conception - both in the valley and in tech - that this is a business for the young.

Most programming work doesn't require a genius level iq. It requires being able to build simple things very, very quickly. As a result, the experience level at a company matches the structure pyramid. The smart, older guys at the top make all the tough decisions and the fresh, younger guys at the bottom code as fast as they can. As those at the bottom age, they find themselves competing with other programmers their age for far fewer jobs toward the top of the pyramid.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lessons from this post: 1. If you're going to swear, don't use an asterisk to try and make it look good. We can take it, honest. 2. Something in between two asterisks on HN gets shown in italics .

Huh. Yep, all I did was use the asterixesses. Clearly the site was offended by my attempt at modesty.

You can edit it. It's a weird nitpick, but it actually detracts from the legibility.
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