The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town • Hacker News Board

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#291

Post by shostack » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #63

I'm curious amongst urbanite hackers here: How many would turn down a job at Facebook, Google, Apple or any other company primarily due to their suburban office park nature? Could you see yourself choosing a poorer quality job from an urban company over a better suburban company? Right now I'm a 15 minute bike ride away from my downtown employer. It'd be pretty hard to convince me to give that up. I've done a 30 minu…

I'm kind of the reverse. Went from living in Chicago and commuting within the city out to the Bay Area.

I ended up in Mountain View commuting I definitely hate the longer commute, doubly so because I have to drive and actively focus vs. be on my phone, read a book, etc.

Barring the fact that most of those companies have urban satellite offices, I think I'd probably go to a small suburb with good job opportunities in the surrounding area over a city any day. Every time I drive up to SF, I'm reminded how much of a nightmare city driving/parking are. And I'm also reminded of how insanely safe I feel in the suburbs compared to the city (I'm in one of the nicest parts of RWC so others closer to El Camino/101 might feel differently there).

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#292

Post by gph » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #286

gph wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is it; Can I build whatever I want on any property I own, or can the government stop me from building a paper factory next to an elementary school? You've thrown out two contradictory statements. If you agree with zoning in certain circumstances then you can't hold that property is a right for use by owner as they see fit(without the threat of being kidnapped or stolen from). Just because the current zoning s…

Easy, I don't know if any jurisdictions have this notion, but most people would agree that industrial buildings are less pleasant than commercial buildings which are less pleasant than residential. Forbid people from building factories in commercial zones, or restaurants in residential zones without permits, but don't impede the reverse. If people want to live in an industrial zone, let them. Sure there are downsides…

You're still arguing about the details of how zoning should be implemented, not whether it's a fundamental right.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#293

Post by nmrm2 » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:31 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #281

nmrm2 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...in a way that it isn't today. I submit that you're comparing unmarried and childless people of today with married and child-bearing people of yesteryear. Do the other comparisons and you'll find that you are off base -- people today do make enormous sacrifices to start families at a young age, and people in the 50s to 80s who were single with no children did live lavish lifestyles. To the extent that there are di…

>Do the other comparisons and you'll find that you are off base -- people today do make enormous sacrifices to start families at a young age, and people in the 50s to 80s who were single with no children did live lavish lifestyles. ... which was my point. People in their 20s today have it no harder than their parents and grandparents. They're simply choosing not to have families in larger numbers.

The quoted comment does not contain the concession you seem to think it does. On the contrary, the quoted section of my previous comment simply states that people in their 20s today have it at least as hard as their parents and grandparents. I'm silent (here) on the question of whether it's harder today.

> They're simply choosing not to have families in larger numbers.

This is only meaningfully entailed by the data if you believe that, historically, everyone who had kids "chose" to do so. I don't think that's accurate, especially if we go back past 1970-1980 or so.

Remember that birth control has only been universally legal in the US for barely a half century. And normalized for a far shorter period of time. In fact, I'd argue that in a huge portion of the country, it's still something of a dirty secret in that you wouldn't necessarily want your employer or extended family to know about it (and we've recently had a supreme court case about this...)

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#294

Post by brudgers » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:33 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #197

Shivetya wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One common occurrence where I live is that county and cities are buying up the old office parks and even strip malls to convert them into government buildings. Most are ideally located as well as being offered up for sale cheaply. Seen even a few charitable organizations buy up parts of a strip mall for the cheap space by square foot. Besides the age a lot of REITs cashed out awhile ago and I am not sure the market i…

Unfortunately for some zoning prevents you from living in those spaces. A friend of mine tried to get a zone variance to turn an office building into essentially a multifamily dwelling and the city turned him down flat. They suggested he could buy the property, tear down the building, get it rezoned, and then build dwellings there. But not go in and convert a perfectly usable space into a livable space. Sigh.

Taking your description literally, there is no legal way under any reasonable zoning code that a zoning department could issue a variance to allow a prohibited residential use on a property zoned and currently occupied by an office building. The variance is a mechanism for relieving a hardship that runs with the land by allowing limited non-conformity (e.g. setbacks on a non-conforming lot or the continuation of a previously legal but currently non-conforming use).

On the other hand, though local regulations can vary, it is unlikely that tearing down the building would be a prerequisite for a rezoning application. It sounds more like just ordinary planners doing their job and seeing what they can get a developer to do...their job is a bit like a cop trying to get a confession: they're allowed to mislead to maximize results. In fairness, an office building probably puts more money into the city coffers [the term of art is "highest and best use"] than a residential development and thus discouraging downzoning is not unreasonable.

Finally, planning departments are a bit like compilers: using the right or wrong terms to describe something is often the difference between being able to do something by right and flat out denial. Every city seems to have their pitbull real-estate attorney who gets stuff through the planning commission via their craft where out of towners and novices will fail. The public access channel makes them easy to identify.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#295

Post by nmrm2 » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:35 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #283

nmrm2 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...in a way that it isn't today. I submit that you're comparing unmarried and childless people of today with married and child-bearing people of yesteryear. Do the other comparisons and you'll find that you are off base -- people today do make enormous sacrifices to start families at a young age, and people in the 50s to 80s who were single with no children did live lavish lifestyles. To the extent that there are di…

I think a lot of people are REALLY underestimating the 'access to birth control' part of the equation. People wait longer today to have kids because they can CHOOSE to wait.

Indeed! That's (part of) what I meant by access to medical care. I think that people also tend to not view having a child in your mid 30s as unnecessarily risky, which I think 20,30,40 years ago was a more common belief/concern.

The combination of the ability to choose to wait and the belief that you can wait and still have a family is, I think, a potent one.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#296

Post by hudibras » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #240

smrtinsert wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah. lived in a city a long time, but living in a va suburb now is bliss by comparison. trees, peace and quiet. walkable groceries were great, but choice from top grocers within a few minutes by car is even better - wegmans, whole foods, even harris teeters. not to mention getting anywhere takes like 5-10 minutes. what do i miss? a great modern restaurant experience, but classic ethnic is great out here - indian, ch…

In what VA suburb can you get anywhere in a few minutes by car? In most of Fairfax County you have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to a drug store. The only exception is the satellite cities (Vienna, Reston, etc). And what's the commute look like for you and your spouse?

Based on being ten minutes or less from a Wegman's, I'm going to guess Fairfax or Alexandria.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#297

Post by acveilleux » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 1:56 AM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #231

riskable wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not usually possible because of the cost to run plumbing. You have to gut the entire facility in order to put kitchens and bathrooms in every apartment and it just isn't (usually) cost effective.

These places have slab floors, and jackhammering sucks, but that isn't the end of the discussion. They typically have really high ceilings, so false floors aren't impossible. Clever architecting can group plumbing-required rooms together. Also, if we're talking about low-income, alternative housing for singles and couples, is a janitor-included shared bathroom down the hall even a problem? Many of the old hotels that…

Lack of opening windows is a bigger deal. Replacing all the curtain walls and stripping the place down to concrete gets suspiciously close to new construction costs. The land had better be worth it.

I've seen in down quite successfully in dense urban locations for condos but that only worked because the land was highly valuable and the building had grandfathered exemption from zoning / sightline laws for height.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#298

Post by rayiner » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 2:14 AM UTC

hudibras wrote: post #296

rayiner wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what VA suburb can you get anywhere in a few minutes by car? In most of Fairfax County you have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to a drug store. The only exception is the satellite cities (Vienna, Reston, etc). And what's the commute look like for you and your spouse?

Based on being ten minutes or less from a Wegman's, I'm going to guess Fairfax or Alexandria.

Both are cities...

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#299

Post by nichtich » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 2:18 AM UTC

gph wrote: post #279

rhinoceraptor wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is telling you that you cannot use your own property as you see fit (with the threat of being kidnapped or stolen from). Zoning is to prevent a paper factory from opening up shop next to an elementary school, not to give themselves a job by creating arbitrary rules.

So what is it; Can I build whatever I want on any property I own, or can the government stop me from building a paper factory next to an elementary school? You've thrown out two contradictory statements. If you agree with zoning in certain circumstances then you can't hold that property is a right for use by owner as they see fit(without the threat of being kidnapped or stolen from). Just because the current zoning s…

Being a fundamental right doesn't mean limitless. Free speech is a fundamental right, yet you will get into trouble when you yell fire in a theater. And of course property right is a fundamental right, we just sacrifice some the of the property right in the form of zoning laws to achieve other goals, similar to our other rights. When somebody asked us to sacrifice our rights without enough reason, it is a violation of the rights.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#300

Post by boombip » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 2:22 AM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #286

gph wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is it; Can I build whatever I want on any property I own, or can the government stop me from building a paper factory next to an elementary school? You've thrown out two contradictory statements. If you agree with zoning in certain circumstances then you can't hold that property is a right for use by owner as they see fit(without the threat of being kidnapped or stolen from). Just because the current zoning s…

Easy, I don't know if any jurisdictions have this notion, but most people would agree that industrial buildings are less pleasant than commercial buildings which are less pleasant than residential. Forbid people from building factories in commercial zones, or restaurants in residential zones without permits, but don't impede the reverse. If people want to live in an industrial zone, let them. Sure there are downsides…

Japan has something similar to this. You can build buildings of a higher restriction (residential being more strict then industrial) in a lower restriction zone.

This article describes it rather well.

http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html