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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

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Re: This Industry is Fucked

#291

Post by Nadya »

magicalist wrote: post #290
Nadya wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever heard of the expression "Don't feed the trolls"? Most of the threats people get are non-serious. Two decades of internet experience tells me that very, very, very, very, very few individually targeted threats ever actually get enacted. So yes, you pretend they don't happen and don't give them the attention they desire. In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after you report it to them. D…

The problem is you're assuming that only carried-through threats are the problem here (that sheer volume of fucked up comments don't make eventually make it unpleasant to work in an industry), and that everyone reacts to threats the same way you do ("very few rape threats come to pass, therefore I feel fine walking to my car alone right now"). > In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after yo…

>and are part of the same industry as the rest of us (why else are they watching tech talks?

You act like this only happens in the tech industry. That's your problem. You seem to live in this little bubble of the world where you're blissfully unaware that this happens to anyone famous. Even marginally so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4G2EsQbaDg

>Go to a major city and get mugged, at gunpoint even, then report your missing wallet and/or phone to the police. Then let me know as soon as they catch the crook and you get your stuff back. I won't wait up.

What do you expect them to do in such a scenario? You seem to live in a novel where every crime can be solved by the most trace amount of evidence. This is the real world. A lot of crimes go uncaught and unpunished. Most home burglars don't get caught. Notice how my comment didn't stop at "don't think it's a serious threat" but includes "there isn't anything they can do".

How many threats do you think Justin Beiber (Bieber?) gets a day? He's still alive. He's still singing. Nothing has happened.

>It's beyond me why people see this sort of thing all the time from police, then presuppose that same force, with little technical training, will get right on those online death threats and catch the person behind them.

It's beyond me why people think that lesser trained, lesser resourceful people online who suffer the same treatment in many scenarios would be able to do anything about it either. But I guess getting attention and pointing people to your Patreon solves a lot of life's problems.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#292

Post by jongraehl »

1. condolences for some horrifying abuse (please report to cops/FBI/etc) 2. "this industry?" understandable feeling but really a wild accusation that's part of a larger media craze. why shouldn't we analyze the horrifying behavior described in terms of public figures and celebrity in general? what is it about tech in particular? 3. conditional on "this industry" being worse than others, are the causes of abuse toward women who are public figures different from abuse toward men who are the same - relevant as we try to fix what is broken in particular about "this industry" to reduce unexpectedly high abuse toward women and/or men.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#293

Post by magicalist »

Nadya wrote: post #291
magicalist wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is you're assuming that only carried-through threats are the problem here (that sheer volume of fucked up comments don't make eventually make it unpleasant to work in an industry), and that everyone reacts to threats the same way you do ("very few rape threats come to pass, therefore I feel fine walking to my car alone right now"). > In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after yo…

>and are part of the same industry as the rest of us (why else are they watching tech talks? You act like this only happens in the tech industry. That's your problem. You seem to live in this little bubble of the world where you're blissfully unaware that this happens to anyone famous . Even marginally so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4G2EsQbaDg >Go to a major city and get mugged, at gunpoint even, then report yo…

> You act like this only happens in the tech industry. That's your problem.

Read more carefully. I was addressing this particular case.

> This is the real world. A lot of crimes go uncaught and unpunished

Uh, yeah, exactly. Which is why your earlier "It's better to stay silent and let police investigate" is not sufficient.

> But I guess getting attention and pointing people to your Patreon solves a lot of life's problems.

In which you reveal yourself:

1) Those rape threats aren't real threats.

2) Everyone wants to stop hearing about the threats you get.

3) You're obviously just bringing up the threats because you're attention seeking.

I mean...seriously?

> Ever heard of the expression "Don't feed the trolls"?

Whoops. Should have listened.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#294

Post by marcus_holmes »

forgottenpass wrote: post #223
marcus_holmes wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the way this is playing out for the Muslims isn't great for them. If the same follows for us, then any self-identified member of the tech community will automatically be suspected of being an asshole by everyone else. I have no idea whether your plan to not identify with the tech community will work. Maybe you're right and it's grown too much to be seen as a single community. Be interesting to find out.

But isn't Islam an counterpoint to your argument to hold the whole community responsible? Or are you just making the detached observation that because it happened to them, it can happen to us? It's already happened to us, and it's not sexism (not that it would excuse anything, but as far as sexist industries go in society, I think we're low enough on the list to escape external criticism). It's the shocking elitism a…

yeah, just trying to spot parallels with other communities that have "problematic" minorities.

I see the elitism and douchebaggery as part of the same problem, it looks like a lack of empathy for others, though I don't know whether that's a cause or symptom.

The sociopathic non-tech founders would get nowhere and be capable of nothing if we didn't actively support them by building their stuff. We need to teach more techies to say "no" to assholes ;)

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#295

Post by marcus_holmes »

i_are_smart wrote: post #246
marcus_holmes wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair point. So you don't like taking blame for other people's bad actions, even if those others are part of your community. I get that. We're also having that discussion around Islam too. But to my mind, this is what makes a community a community. If good things happen we all share credit, so when bad things happen we all share blame. We, collectively, respond to events together. And we police ourselves, which is…

> So yes, if one of us behaves like an asshole then we as a community take responsibility for that, deal with the asshole, and apologize to the victim. This is where I see the problem... We aren't a town, or a single company, or a government. There's no Computer Science union. So how do you propose we 'deal with' these assholes? The tech 'community' really doesn't have a lot of power over its members. There isn't any…

yeah, I agree with that, though obviously the problem is less with how we see ourselves and more with how others see us: If you turn up to a BBQ, identify yourself as a coder/founder and immediately people assume you're a sociopathic/sexist asshole then you have a problem. Telling people you're not part of that community isn't going to help.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#296

Post by anthonyb »

chroma wrote: post #283
anthonyb wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See points 2 and 5 above: you're part of the problem. In addition, labelling Randi as a "harasser" is a common gamergate tactic.

I'm sorry if you think I'm part of the problem, but I don't see how those two points relate to my comment. Heck, I agree with pretty much everything shkyes said. I didn't know labelling Randi Harper a harasser was a gamergate tactic. I know almost nothing about this whole gamergate business. I just visited the OAPI's site and recognized the name Randi Harper from my acquaintance's experience. He had a very rough time…

So, the two parts:

2. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your claims.

5. Downplaying the extreme harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you (or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freebsdgirl%20%23gamergate&s...

The only reason that Randi created GGAutoblocker and the OAPI was because she was targeted by gamergate. And their tactics are, essentially, what you're doing right now - smear tactics.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#297

Post by vilmosi »

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

>>> That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But...

Isn't that true with everything? Is the medical industry fucked because some doctors are getting sued for malpractice? Is accountancy fucked because some accountants embezzle money? Are teachers fucked because some guy fails students who look like his ex?

I mean come on. These attitudes are in no way productive and the only reason the above post exists is to attract attention, not to fix anything.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#298

Post by wpietri »

i_are_smart wrote: post #249
wpietri wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry. Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub. There's no bar association or union or anythi…

It may not be your community, but it's definitely mine. Any community has subcommunities, just like any city has neighborhoods.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#299

Post by wpietri »

TTPrograms wrote: post #277
daveloyall wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

You really need to rephrase, because the way I read this statement is contradictory: Responsibility: the state of being the person who caused something to happen. Blame: to say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened. I think what you want to say is that we're asking people to stand against this sort of abuse, which seems to be happening to the extent possible. If you have s…

One meaning of "responsible" is basically synonymous with blame, but that's not the only meaning, or even the primary one.

If some random litters on my lawn and then walks away, they are to blame for the mess, but I am responsible for cleaning it up because it's my lawn.

As another example, there are plenty of American citizens who argued fervently against the Iraq war, so they aren't to blame for it, but they are responsible for paying the debts that result from it.

You and I are not necessarily to blame for the sexism and misogyny in the tech industry. But personally, I want the industry to be a welcoming place for everybody with technical skill, not just dude with thick skins. So I am taking my share of responsibility for my professional community. Would you like to help?

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#300

Post by wpietri »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #278
daveloyall wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

Here's the thing: accountability/responsibility must match control. Can I stop all this? No. I'd like to, but I can't. Then there is no realistic way that I can take responsibility for it. Can I call out whatever I see? Sure can. That I'm responsible for.

It is optimal when responsibility and control match, but they rarely do. E.g., parents have much more responsibility for children than they have control. Citizens and city governments have a responsibility to keep garbage off the streets, but they don't have perfect control of who can put garbage on the streets.

If you are doing what you can to solve the problem, then you have already taken your share responsibility for the state of the industry.

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