Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers • Hacker News Board

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#291

Post by bambax » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:03 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #176

CPLX wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail. The reason people are "making it sound like that" is because that's actually what's happening. Freddy Gray was plucked from a sidewalk, detained, and then killed, for literally no lawful reason. The conte…

Yes these things happen. They should not happen. But they happen in most counties --even homogenous countries. Also, people don't get killed like this everyday, these are exceptions, not acceptable exceptions, but its also not routine as you make it out to be. The problem is economic and cultural (we allow for guns) so the police take maximum caution, and given the police are the only expression of government in some…

> But they happen in most counties

If you meant "countries": no. No other country jails that many people, either compared to its population, or in absolute numbers. Not now, not ever.

The US is not "the land of the free", it's "the land of the jailed".

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"... and I will promplty put those bums in my private prisons where I'll watch them be raped to death.

That should be the quote on the so-called Statue of "Liberty".

We should ask for that statue back.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#292

Post by bambax » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:08 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #62

Bostonian wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them? I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

Other things that make people brain-dead and create invalids include snowboarding and being a pedestrian. Ending the drug war is actually in fact as simple as it sounds.

You're so right it hurts to read your comments ;-)

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#293

Post by beat » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:09 PM UTC

netfire wrote: post #283

beat wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that there isn't any race-restricted aid. You're saying there is. You're wrong about that. Feel free to prove otherwise. And sure, you can bring up some scholarship as an exception that proves the rule (I wonder how Daughters of the American Revolution scholarships fit?). But that's a very weak argument. I'm talking about the welfare state in general, and it is pointedly not about race.

I didn't mean to imply that there was government sponsored aid that was race-restricted. There definitely is for scholarships[1] and affirmative action policies for admission to schools or specific programs in those schools. (although that's not necessarily monetary aid) Some quick googling shows results of what appears to be private organizations solely focused on providing assistance to african americans or people…

Think about how circular this is... you're now arguing that the problem is a sense of victimization brought on by racially-driven aid in the form of college scholarships. So your victims have already succeeded in finding their way out!

There are excellent arguments that the welfare state structure is a significant cause of racial inequality. But your "teaches them to be victims" argument is not one of them.

A much more interesting and defensible argument would be that the welfare state in its current incarnation punishes people for getting off of welfare. If the "reward" for finding a job is to take away aid on a 1:1 basis, why would getting a job be a good idea? Another interesting angle is the fact that minimum wage is not sufficient to keep a family out of poverty - especially when you throw in the costs of transportation and child care associated with a job.

To find the racial problem, look at history. When the welfare state first came into existence, racism had kept the black community in deep poverty, so poverty was already unevenly distributed. Since the welfare system merely treats the symptoms rather than the causes of poverty, the disparity has continued. And the disparity is driven not by welfare, but rather by institutional racism.

There was a great photo by a trio of black artists at the Henderson protests. It was a black woman dressed as a slave, a shirtless black man wearing a noose, and a black man in an orange prison jumpsuit, standing together - the history of institutional racism in America.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#294

Post by crpatino » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:16 PM UTC

lars wrote: post #234

crpatino wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a falsifiable statement, you know. Is there any statistic to show what percentage of today's top 1% earners where born to a bottom 50% family from the previous generation, and viceversa? If less than what you would expect from two non-correlated random variables, this suggest where you start in life has an effect of how far you can go. This does not invalidate your hypothesis, but may suggest that upwards mob…

You seem to be talking about average wealth and social mobility. This is different from inequality, which is about the distance from the bottom to the top. Some of these results are counter intuitive. For example: There's data to show that the top quartile of earners in low inequality countries live longer than their top quartile counterparts in high inequality countries, even if the high inequality counterparts earn…

Right, I have seen that research before, and I don't think you should be getting down-votes either.

The relevance of social mobility in the discussion was because the GP assumes the correlation that the problems related to inequality/poverty is the result of a third factor that is cause of the other to: personal choices.

My position is that if this is the case, we should be observing strong social mobility in both ways. Surely there are a number of "deserving poor" that started life in a disadvantaged situation but are able to lift themselves out of that by intelligent choices and hard work, as well as there are privileged folks who make enough ill choices and land themselves in trouble.

IF this is not the case, we should adjust the level of agency that people are capable. To what degree is it personal choice able to influence the well being we enjoy in life.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#295

Post by bambax » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:16 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

I completely agree that we overcriminalize things and imprison far too many people in the U.S. I'm 100% on-board with this. It's our shame the way we treat non-violent offenders. A disgrace. But guys, nothing is ever 100% one way or the other, no matter how much you support it. So you have to look at differing points of view -- unless the objective is just to have a good rant. Here are the things that come to mind re…

> the country is safer than it ever has been

This is only true if you exclude from "the country" all the prisons where people are routinely raped and stabbed.

Also, even if it were true, the important question is: what caused it, and could that result be achieved with other means? How do other safe countries address the problem?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#296

Post by timq » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:17 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #21

timq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In France, that depends mostly of your shade of skin. Well, it mostly depend if you live in a sensible district or not. It happens that mostly Arab and black people live in sensible district because they are poorer than the normal average french people. And (relative) poverty is the source of a lot of social problems. I don't say there is no racism in France too, there is. But it is more indirect, like people tryin…

I think you mean "sensitive." "Sensible" is a value judgement about a person or course of action and how much "sense" they possess.

Thank you, this is indeed what I wanted to say! (I'm still learning english ;) )

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#297

Post by crpatino » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:18 PM UTC

gwern wrote: post #233

crpatino wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a falsifiable statement, you know. Is there any statistic to show what percentage of today's top 1% earners where born to a bottom 50% family from the previous generation, and viceversa? If less than what you would expect from two non-correlated random variables, this suggest where you start in life has an effect of how far you can go. This does not invalidate your hypothesis, but may suggest that upwards mob…

> If less than what you would expect from two non-correlated random variables, this suggest where you start in life has an effect of how far you can go. Where you start in life is not independent of innate traits.

Agreed. But if that's the case, how (or to what degree) can inequality be the consequence of "one's own chosen behavior".

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#298

Post by r00fus » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:20 PM UTC

darkroasted wrote: post #178

CPLX wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail. The reason people are "making it sound like that" is because that's actually what's happening. Freddy Gray was plucked from a sidewalk, detained, and then killed, for literally no lawful reason. The conte…

Do you really think it's random happenstance that urban blacks get arrested for experimenting with drugs in a way that suburban whites do not? It's more complicated than that. Police are actually much more tolerant of open-air/street corner drug-dealing in black ghetto neighborhoods than in suburbia. If you read books or news articles about these neighborhoods, you see that the dealing gets ignored for months and mon…

> The elephant in the room is that black ghetto communities do not self-police and have a dire problem of particular senseless and indiscriminate murders

s/do not/are not allowed to/

Even Oakland won't allow community policing despite the wishes of the community.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#299

Post by crpatino » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:26 PM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #261

ctdonath wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

large scale inequality is the symptom of lack of social mobility. If poor people are able to work hard and become rich, there wouldn't be such large difference in wealth. Inequality starts from inequality of opportunities.

I think it was Warren Buffet who said something along the lines of: if we handled the Olympics the way we handle wealth, we would be looking for the grandchildren of medal winners in the 50's and 60's and sending them to compete today.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#300

Post by mc32 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 8:32 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #291

mc32 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes these things happen. They should not happen. But they happen in most counties --even homogenous countries. Also, people don't get killed like this everyday, these are exceptions, not acceptable exceptions, but its also not routine as you make it out to be. The problem is economic and cultural (we allow for guns) so the police take maximum caution, and given the police are the only expression of government in some…

> But they happen in most counties If you meant "countries": no. No other country jails that many people, either compared to its population, or in absolute numbers. Not now, not ever. The US is not "the land of the free", it's "the land of the jailed". "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"... and I will promplty put those bums in my private prisons where I'll watch them be rape…

Oh, there is no question we jail too many people, and we jail rather than treat the mentally ill.

Reform is definitely needed, no question.

What I was saying is that other countries also disproportionately incarcerate their poor. It's not a uniquely American racist thing. Go to Angola, Nigeria, Russia, China, it's no different. Yes, we overdo the incarceration fixes all ills thing, we've got an unhealthy fetish for it, but my point was, the poor everywhere are disproportionately affected.

People seem to take it that I'm okay with that. I'm not, but its not uniquely American and its not a policy to target ethnicities. If America were all white or all black we'd still have a problem of overrepresentation of poor in the system. By overrepresentation I mean normalizing for crimes.