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If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

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Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#291

Post by pron »

alpatters wrote: post #255
pron wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C++ gives you the option to just put your objects on the stack and have them clean themselves up upon destruction. Modern machines have, I don't know, say, 64GB RAM? How much of that can you use for thread stacks? 1GB tops? Modern applications work with really big heaps. Stack allocation is irrelevant for most of what the application is doing. > Enforcing the placement of small objects on the heap, even a garbage c…

> Stack allocation is irrelevant for most of what the application is doing. Well I disagree with that. In C++ it is quite common for most objects to be allocated on the stack. I have never heard stack allocation being described as irrelevant. Of course if the language puts everything on the heap then that statement might be true.

> In C++ it is quite common for most objects to be allocated on the stack.

Most objects? You have 64GB of RAM! You want to tell me that you can take advantage of all that RAM with thread stacks? You're unlikely to even use 4GB of stack.

If you don't, then you're talking about a small application.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#292

Post by CmonDev »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #203
Theriac25 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, it's unclear to me where java might be optimal. I'd say server side processing of whatever. That's what we use it at work for, and I don't see how any of the mainstream languages would be much, if any, better. Our software has to run on our customers' servers, so portability is of utmost importance since we don't want to need to compile it for random OS's. This rules out languages that need native binaries…

Python/Ruby/whatever will most likely get faster as access to tools like LLVM and the JVM itself is getting more common these days. You'll still get the HUGE bump in development times (due to the inherent expressiveness of the languages) and at least a good portion of the speed benefits you'd reap from Java itself.

"You'll still get the HUGE bump in development times (due to the inherent expressiveness of the languages)"

Not sure if that is true. Maybe for small typical web-projects or server-side scenarios that benefit from thin scripting layer (like at Google). If it is true though, then Haskell and OCAML/F# would be even better because you get expressiveness without loosing the obvious advantages of strong static type systems.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#293

Post by CmonDev »

jaggederest wrote: post #159
EpicEng wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Javascript? Really? "Thought leaders" are hopefully just using the best language suited for the job. It often comes down to what kind of code you are writing and what it needs to run on.

You're doubting that Javascript is a popular language for people pushing the forefront of software development? I'd cite for you a ton of the work being done on node, ember, knockout, backbone, jquery, even some embeddable hardware thing I read about on here the other day. There's a huge amount of energy in that area, lots of extremely smart people. Or are you just being snobbish about javascript? It's a pretty solid…

"pushing the forefront of software development" - you mean desperately trying to work around legacy issues in a increasingly standardised environment?

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#294

Post by codygman »

pron wrote: post #230
fleitz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why kernels are written in java. If you're writing complex code java is rarely the answer as it requires so much complexity itself. Hint: Most java projects just appear to be complex because of the poor quality of the language (and developers). Java is hands down the choice for simple projects written by way too many poor quality developers. The JVM can barely manage 12 GB of memory, Java is a piece of cr…

You seriously don't know what you're talking about. Virtually all serious software that uses complex concurrent data structures is written in Java nowadays, because the JDK is pretty much the only runtime that supports state-of-the-art, envelope-pushing, concurrency. Here's my previous discussion with haberman on the subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6505853

http://learnyousomeerlang.com/

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#295

Post by CmonDev »

jaggederest wrote: post #159
EpicEng wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Javascript? Really? "Thought leaders" are hopefully just using the best language suited for the job. It often comes down to what kind of code you are writing and what it needs to run on.

You're doubting that Javascript is a popular language for people pushing the forefront of software development? I'd cite for you a ton of the work being done on node, ember, knockout, backbone, jquery, even some embeddable hardware thing I read about on here the other day. There's a huge amount of energy in that area, lots of extremely smart people. Or are you just being snobbish about javascript? It's a pretty solid…

"It's a pretty solid language" - can you remind me what should I use "==" or "===" and why should I care? More here: http://wtfjs.com

"has interpreters installed on virtually every computer on earth with built-in distribution" - which means we are stuck with it, thanks very much for "open" web.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#296

Post by CmonDev »

cmircea wrote: post #228
xerophtye wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend, JS has a virtual monopoly on what it does. If there are other client-side browser languages, i have not heard of them. >It has built-in interpreters (read "Browsers") on every computer. JS is pretty slow (It uses an interpreter!). The notion of using it on the backend is debatable. "A lot of people are putting a lot of effort in to it" isn't a valid argument. u said it yourself: "people are told to/forced…

Expect it doesn't use an interpreter these days, it is JIT compiled (a la V8). It's quite fast now.

Is it still single-threaded only using one CPU core?

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#297

Post by CmonDev »

RivieraKid wrote: post #233
Tloewald wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bigger projects which can only be implemented in java? The linux kernel? Photoshop? Facebook? Or some kind of godawful tiered corporate thing that's big and unwieldy precisely because it's implemented in java?

IntelliJ IDEA or Android. Of course, you could use any language for a big project but unless you have specific requirenments (usually C-like performance), Java / C# is the best choice. Photoshop - Needs C-like performance for image processing parts. If they started development today, I think they would go with a C# / C++ hybrid. Facebook - The fact that they had to write their own PHP compiler is telling. PHP is nowd…

Can't go wrong with a multi-paradigm managed C-derived language.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#298

Post by CmonDev »

LukeShu wrote: post #274
cmircea wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those cases are inherently platform specific and are impossible to abstract completely. UI for example. Pure Java UIs plain suck; you can use Gtk# in C# for the same thing, but none will be up to the platform's UI standards. Besides, the JVM isn't available on iOS and Android, so it isn't universally available either.

Java is actually used heavily on Android.

On Dalvik not JVM.

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#299

Post by gurkendoktor »

koomi wrote: post #15
buckbova wrote: post #4

Well what do they teach in schools? When I was attaining my degree during the end of the last century, Java (and XML) was being trumpeted as the saving grace for all soon to be software professionals. We were all in love OO programming and this scratched us right where C++ left an itch. Oh Java Beans and Servlets, how we loved thee. It’ll take decades before all the code created by those who came right before me and…

I just started university and it's still all Java. I found out one university in my country (Germany) teaches Scheme in their introductory course, but sadly I had already enrolled at a different one at that time. The high school CS curriculum here is also basically an introduction to Java.

I just looked up my old university's curriculum and it must be another university - our 'Programming 101' is half C, half Java now. I bet our students will never hear of recursion on campus anymore.

From what I heard as a student assistant, there were all sorts of reasons for dropping Scheme. First, professors have to use half of their time for research, and there isn't much useful research left in programming languages (given that the industry is decades behind that research, anyway). Second, many of our old professors started out in mathematics, unlike the new generation. Third, everything is being dumbed down. :(

At least my job is secure...

Re: If Java Is Dying, It Sure Looks Awfully Healthy

#300

Post by geebee »

wting wrote: post #242
EpicEng wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular in terms of use, yes, but liked? I don't know, I doubt it. Android and iOS essentially force you to use Java or Objective-C respectively. I don't hate Java, but I don't like it either. It lacks quality of life features that other, similar languages have had for years. I can't stand writing code in it if I don't have to (and don't get me started on Objective-C...) From what I hear from others and read on a wee…

Java is a commonly used language, but not very popular according to a Hacker News poll from 2012: https://i.imgur.com/toGKy21.jpg In fact, it's likability percentage is worse than PHP! I think the issue may stem from the fact that given a choice, few people use Java in their own projects but have no choice at work.

Unfortunately, most of these polls don't really talk about the context. I don't think I've ever been as unhappy as a developer (in terms of the tools) as when I was required to use Spring, Hibernate, Eclipse, and so forth to do web development. There was absolutely no reason we couldn't be using Rails or Django for our needs - this was a top down management situation, and I'm sure my political frustrations contributed to my unhappiness.

However, a recent coursera course on Data Structures and Algorithms used Java, and I really didn't mind it at all. I'd even say I found it reasonably pleasant to use Java.

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