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English has been my pain for 15 years

antirez.com

291–300 of 308 posts

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#291

My mother tongue is russian. At childhood I was astonished by spelling scene in translated american film: - Как пишется "кот" # How to spell cat? - К О Т # C A T It's quite a dumb question on russian. There is no difference between spelling and pronunciation. Yet repeating word character by character shown as a mark of intelligence. Later on I've learned english by reading. Direct mapping to known phonemes gives very…

Another opinion here. I've had to learn Russian and the pronunciation was presented easy only at the beginning. Russian has:

- Diacritics that do not usually appear in the broad case writing. One example that I happen to remember now is «ё», which most of the time is written only as a plain «е» (but is still pronounced differently).

- Broad range of similar pronounced letters, like the group «и, й, ь, ъ» (Ukrainian also adds «і» and «ї» to those), which becomes very complicated and even ambiguous when someone has to write on dictation. I still didn't get it to distinguish «ь» from «ъ» case other than just learning parrot-fashion how the words are written.

- Unregulated accents. There is no universal rule for which vowel receives the accent in a given word. You have to just remember the words. Learning to read the alphabet is not enough.

- Different pronunciation for the same letter. One example is «о» which is pronounced sometimes like "o̞" and other times like "ɐ", but there are lots of other cases. So try «Как пишется...» providing only phonetic transcription to a learning-Russian person and see what comes out.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#292
post #51

hey guys, you are not understanding us, we are not understanding what you say as well, and it is hard to find people that, once your understanding limits are obvious, will try to slow down the peace of the conversation. Often even if I say I did not understood, I'll get the same sentence repeated the same at speed of light. This is an important point. There are a number of things that native speakers of English can d…

Oh, and avoid baseball idioms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_English-language_id...

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#293

I have a French colleague with the strangest attitude to his strong accent when speaking English. His accent is strong enough that it makes understanding him a bit tricky sometimes, and when I mentioned it, he said that this accent was part of his identity and he wouldn't be trying to improve it. He was weirdly taken aback when I said something in a 'good' French accent. This attitude was really surprising to me. For…

> I wonder how widespread this "X is my native tongue, so I'm going to speak English in a strong X accent, because otherwise I'd be submerging my identity" attitude is?

I hope you understand that hiding own accent is not the easiest thing and requires some effort even after lots of training. Our vocal apparatus is adapted to our mother tongue, so even if we are capable of speaking all English phonemes, not all of them are "natural" for us.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#294
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really doubt pg's claim that an accent strong enough to impede comprehension is a barrier to creating a successful startup in Silicon Valley? The importance of this is undoubtably a piece of common sense that some need to hear, but really, it is common sense. As a founder you need to interact with customers, vendors, employees and investors. If those groups have trouble understanding your speech, then how coul…

This, honestly. As european (and italian), I can confirm most of what Antirez said. Moreover, founding a startup (or running a business, or working as an account, or working as a diplomat) is undoubtly much more difficult when you have to work with people speaking a foreing language. The truth is that not just "accents", but also slang, technical lingo and even local humour come into play when you have to decode whet…

but also slang, technical lingo and even local humour

One of my favourite bits of (UK) english that I regularly find myself having to explain to people is the difference between "bollocks", meaning that something awful has occurred and "the bollocks", meaning that something is amazing.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#295
post #88
post #7

This is a great post. Here's a BBC Radio Four programme where Stephen Fry talks about spelling reform, and it includes a little bit about pronunciation. The brokenness of English is a problem we know about! ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039c5cs ) > The fact that people from different English speaking countries have issues communicating is already a big hint about how odd is English phonetically. It doesn't have…

> BBC used to have the excellent World Service programming. BBC radio programmes were also at the receiving end of a wave of political correctness sweeping through the Blair years. "Classist" Received Pronunciation was out, regional accents were in (mostly so that Scottish cronies could occupy civil-servant jobs and the likes of John Prescott could eventually become plausible Peers of the Realm, but I digress). The r…

"Classist" Received Pronunciation was out, regional accents were in (mostly so that Scottish cronies could occupy civil-servant jobs and the likes of John Prescott could eventually become plausible Peers of the Realm, but I digress)

Fucking hell, you're a prize twat. Besides, the shift from RP to regional accents in the media started during the 60's, not the 90's, it isn't some Blairite conspiracy. My mum used to winge about it because her dad sent her to RP to get rid of her welsh accent just at the point where having a regional accent was starting to be a benefit.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#296

So what can we do? As a native English speaker, I freely admit that our spelling is horrible and our grammar has some sharp edges. Furthermore I freely admit that it's unfair that the burden of making communication work lies so heavily on others and so lightly on people like me. I could try to learn Italian, but even if a third of English-speakers did, it wouldn't really change Antirez's situation, much less that of…

Simply try to avoid this: "Often even if I say I did not understood, I'll get the same sentence repeated the same at speed of light."

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#297
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BBC used to have the excellent World Service programming. BBC radio programmes were also at the receiving end of a wave of political correctness sweeping through the Blair years. "Classist" Received Pronunciation was out, regional accents were in (mostly so that Scottish cronies could occupy civil-servant jobs and the likes of John Prescott could eventually become plausible Peers of the Realm, but I digress). The r…

"Classist" Received Pronunciation was out, regional accents were in (mostly so that Scottish cronies could occupy civil-servant jobs and the likes of John Prescott could eventually become plausible Peers of the Realm, but I digress) Fucking hell, you're a prize twat. Besides, the shift from RP to regional accents in the media started during the 60's, not the 90's, it isn't some Blairite conspiracy. My mum used to win…

Thank you for the kind words, as a foreigner I try hard to fit in! :)

I've been around here since 2001 and from what I've read, the blairites were the ones responsible for big changes at the BBC in particular. The topic had been raised and policies had been half-heartedly implemented before, but they were finally enshrined after Blair came to power.

Same goes for the Scottish influence in civil service and ministerial appointments, as far as I understand, although it could be argued that it's just balancing out the Tories' penchant for English-English personalities (probably because they hardly elected anyone out of Scotland since the Thatcher years).

(btw, sorry if this sounds anti-Labour; as a proto-Bennite, I probably resent the careerist attitude of most NewLabourites more than I should -- Benn fought hard to get rid of his titles, and now we're supposed to be led by Lord Prezza... -- and their horrible treatment of Gordon Brown is still too fresh).

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, honestly. As european (and italian), I can confirm most of what Antirez said. Moreover, founding a startup (or running a business, or working as an account, or working as a diplomat) is undoubtly much more difficult when you have to work with people speaking a foreing language. The truth is that not just "accents", but also slang, technical lingo and even local humour come into play when you have to decode whet…

but also slang, technical lingo and even local humour One of my favourite bits of (UK) english that I regularly find myself having to explain to people is the difference between "bollocks" , meaning that something awful has occurred and "the bollocks" , meaning that something is amazing.

Americans have the same thing (different root though). "Shit" vs "The Shit"

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#299
post #293

I have a French colleague with the strangest attitude to his strong accent when speaking English. His accent is strong enough that it makes understanding him a bit tricky sometimes, and when I mentioned it, he said that this accent was part of his identity and he wouldn't be trying to improve it. He was weirdly taken aback when I said something in a 'good' French accent. This attitude was really surprising to me. For…

> I wonder how widespread this "X is my native tongue, so I'm going to speak English in a strong X accent, because otherwise I'd be submerging my identity" attitude is? I hope you understand that hiding own accent is not the easiest thing and requires some effort even after lots of training. Our vocal apparatus is adapted to our mother tongue, so even if we are capable of speaking all English phonemes, not all of the…

Yes, but the anecdote I wrote about was a situation where someone was deliberately not making any effort to improve their accent. It wasn't about trying but failing.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#300
Does anyone know of software that does speech to IPA (or any phonetic representation)?

If such a thing exist then it should be possible to write a program which compares the users pronunciation to the official one and gives tips and exercises on getting closer to the proper way of speaking. I can see some difficulties with differences depending on the speakers native language and the target language.

What do you think?

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