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I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

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Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#291

Post by dooglius »

SilasX wrote: post #109
pavel_lishin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It felt even worse when reading Shakespeare, which is nominally the same language you and I speak, but just barely. Add the fact that it's a play, where the performance carries a lot of the meaning. The end result was that I - and as far as I could tell, 99% of my classmates - got basically negative value out of sitting in class and reading lines we didn't understand out loud, without even time to try and parse it ou…

Rant: I missed lot of Shakespeare appreciation when they somehow failed to teach that (other) people actually like how iambic pentameter sounds, and this is critical to enjoying it. Nothing about how Shakespeare is voiced has ever registered as sounding particularly pleasant to me. The word choice, sure, but not the meter or stressing. They taught that Shakespeare used iambic pentameter, and how you're "supposed" to…

Oh wow I remember having read/heard that it was helpful for memorization, never occurred to me to think that there was an impact for some listeners too.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#292

Post by teaearlgraycold »

So many things we spend our time on in school never have the basics explained. Why am I reading Shakespeare? Why am I writing an essay? Why am I learning algebra?

By the time I realized writing is the process by which you organize your thoughts (not just record them) I was a few years out of school. I started appreciating Shakespeare after watching Throne of Blood at 21. I generally enjoyed learning math, but it was not impressed upon me that the mental machinery you build to solve algebra can be used for soooo many things.

I was lucky to go to an excellent public school. My teachers were generally pretty good and cared. And yet they didn't manage to embed these basic facts in my head. I worry they were too busy making sure I could pass a test and didn't spend time making sure I'd got the most important lessons out of the subject.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#293

Post by [deleted] »

11101010010001 wrote: post #273
forgotmypasswor wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^ this. I was never an art person and then one day I felt like I was just punched in the face when it hit me. It's not like "I like this, it's interesting", it's like " Oh. That."

the punched in the face expression is strange here. I get it but I also presume that you have never been punched in the face much like you never connected (that's the word you are looking for, also a boxing term) with art.

[deleted]

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#294

Post by ip26 »

jrmg wrote: post #4

I’ve long held the opinion that humans ‘over’-value complexity . It’s why we can spend so much time tasting, analyzing, and enjoying fancy coffee or whisky - despite the fact that almost everyone is repulsed by them the first time they try them. Literature might be the same? To be clear, I enjoy all three!

I'm always suspicious we read far too much into most works, as if they were all live examples of The DaVinci Code. It feels inevitable that one day, centuries from now, someone will "realize" that JK Rowling embedded a map of hyperspace into her phonemes or that Banksy was actually issuing incisive commentary on the contrast between ancient Sumerian government and veganism all along.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#295

Post by bryantwolf »

This piece is great. And it’s totally true that we’re surrounded by walls of slop. I stop reading things all the time when I notice the tinge of AI.

That said, I don’t think that just because this is the way things are, this is this is the way things have to be. Even with our interactions with AI. And I have hope.

Ted Chiang had a great piece in the New Yorker years ago called “Why AI isn’t going to make Art”[1] where he describes something similar. There are 10,000 choices to make in every good pieces of art. AI makes the average choice for every decision and the average choice is derivative and uninteresting. There in I think lies both the problem and the solution. Rather than autocompleting our work, we’d all be so lucky to have a captivated and motivated reader who asks all of the questions this author suggests, so we can get better and better at asking them ourselves and making great art.

[1] https://dmd-program.github.io/dmd-300-master/assets/Chiang-A...

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#296

Post by eszed »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #176
dredmorbius wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a similar experience, with the same play, but in an absolutely minimalist setting . No sets, the only props were a few chairs, and costumes were the same white slacks and smock worn by all the players. And it absolutely worked. This wasn't long after my secondary education --- I'd just started uni. But enough had happened that I got it. As I've commented recently, even as an excellent reader , there's someth…

I couldn't find the exact point that I was thinking of (when Hamlet is telling Ophelia that men are basically all just assholes), but I think this modern-day version of Hamlet helps to illustrate your point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdZVR4Ry3jQ

I agree with everything you say, but to offer an alternative (modern) take, from an actor who takes more care with the verse:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1u8OlUS7BhU

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#297

Post by zmgsabst »

hibikir wrote: post #152

The anecdote about the garden of earthly delights is going to be relatable even for art students. I've met art teachers that ended up "trapped" in Madrid by the Prado Museum: A green, American future Ph.D student that was heading to Greece to specialize in old greek art. But instead of flying straight there, they stopped at Madrid to see the Prado, and were never able to leave. Changed their direction immediately, an…

I know almost nothing about music; can’t play a bit.

I can still distinctly remember the first time I heard Rachmaninoff performed in person — and the shock at the “brutal genius” of the art.

I think sometimes art just speaks to you.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#298

Post by epihelix »

PsylentKnight wrote: post #100
schoen wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That speech is expressing an awesome idea: Juliet is saying that she loves Romeo-the-person, but she is terrified of her bad luck in that he happens to have a certain surname ("Montague") which will automatically cause her family to hate him. Which, indeed, they do. It's basically something like "why did I fall in love with such an inconvenient person?", together with "why does my family care so much about this thing…

Sure, but the archaic language can obscure the awesome idea. "Why are you Romeo?" may sound less poetic to modern ears, but isn't that how people back then would have parsed it - just as easily as everyday language, because it was their everyday language? I feel like in a way we're losing Shakespeare's intended effect, because we insist on using a "language" that isn't used anymore. Yes, I understand that it's consid…

Well, "[Romeo], why are you Romeo?" would not work, as it's not iambic pentameter. It is literally not poetic, no matter whose ears are hearing it.

Much of Shakespeare is written in poetry, not prose, and that format engenders rare and archaic word use even today.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#299

Post by eszed »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #164
PsylentKnight wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the archaic language can obscure the awesome idea. "Why are you Romeo?" may sound less poetic to modern ears, but isn't that how people back then would have parsed it - just as easily as everyday language, because it was their everyday language? I feel like in a way we're losing Shakespeare's intended effect, because we insist on using a "language" that isn't used anymore. Yes, I understand that it's consid…

True, but a big part of Shakespeare is the rhythm, and if you replace the words with newer words that disappears. Not to say it will be a complete failure, but it does lose some of its poetry and power. And smut. There's a lot of smut and double entendre in Shakespeare. An innocent modern word like "nothing" has multiple layers of meaning in Elizabethan English. Modern audiences don't get it unless someone explains i…

> unless someone explains it to them

Yeah, that helps. But attending a performance by a company that thoroughly understands it themselves is a massive shortcut. Sure, you'll still not be able to define every word, but they'll give you all the context you need to "get" enough to enjoy the show.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the poetry. In fact, being aware of that level is essential to really understanding the plays. I'm sure you're aware of this, but for the peanut gallery: when Romeo and Juliet meet, their first words to each other are a mf-ing sonnet. They're so in tune with each other that they complete each other's thoughts and (within the world of the play) extemporize a whole poem. And it's good - totally witty and flirtatious, and just... Yeah. You want to talk about two people made for each other? That's them. Which, of course, sets up the whole tragedy of the rest of the show. Good actors will make you feel that, but it hits harder if you recognize the sonnet as it goes by.

Re: I like 'em thick: an apology to my English teachers

#300

Post by ktallett »

hibikir wrote: post #152

The anecdote about the garden of earthly delights is going to be relatable even for art students. I've met art teachers that ended up "trapped" in Madrid by the Prado Museum: A green, American future Ph.D student that was heading to Greece to specialize in old greek art. But instead of flying straight there, they stopped at Madrid to see the Prado, and were never able to leave. Changed their direction immediately, an…

I had this incident with the Miraikan in Tokyo. I visited it in the summer of 2017 and just seeing the fascinating future I knew I had to be a part of it. The week after I got home I decided to apply late to University to finally take that step. A PhD and lots of research later and I'm finally getting papers accepted that are planning the future I want to see.
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