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The room the economy can't see

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Re: The room the economy can't see

#291

Post by dredmorbius »

em-bee wrote: post #290
dredmorbius wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is explicitly what the guidelines are against. If you'd prefer an admonishment which specifically points to that, try: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13213514 > or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14435528 >. You can search/review others yourself with: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... > (dang) or https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... > (sctb)…

i disagree. i mean, sure, they could have said "i expect everyone will disagree with me" instead of "I'm fully prepared to be downvoted into oblivion", and it would have meant the same thing. but neither is complaining about downvotes like the messages you link to. and quite frankly i disagree that asking for explanations when you downvote is the same as complaining about downvotes because that again could have been…

Both your first examples are clearly against HN mods' expectations as a close review of the searches I give above will show.

Asking for reasons for disagreement (not downvotes) is legitimate, and I challenge you to find any instances in which mods admonish this practice.

Again, the mods' comments form a large body of informal guidance on HN practices. Those practices are explicitly NOT written precisely or in detail for both brevity and flexibility.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22267961>, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7798120>, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7617961>, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7606756>.

HN's guiding principle is "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>, 1st 'graph). This means fighting against any behaviours which will cause the site to lose its mind, a constant battle of the mods. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17689715>. The balance is delicate.

The root comment in this thread would have been more effective without the downvote-grousing throat clearing: "in the USA we have non-profit organizations. You might have heard of things like the YMCA, BGCA, etc." Even that 2nd sentence is probably needlessly provocative, and could be rewritten as "Such as the YMCA...".

Spending time with HN may be useful in refining rhetorical technique in such ways.

Oh, and for the record, by no means do I agree with mods in all cases (and I'm absolutely not one myself). I'll occasionally downvote, or flag, admonishments if I find them entirely off-base or tone-deaf. But for the most part I understand why the guidelines and actions exist. Where I disagree, it's generally because the guidelines themselves impose an inequality-amplifying bias to the site.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#292

Post by em-bee »

dredmorbius wrote: post #291
em-bee wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree. i mean, sure, they could have said "i expect everyone will disagree with me" instead of "I'm fully prepared to be downvoted into oblivion", and it would have meant the same thing. but neither is complaining about downvotes like the messages you link to. and quite frankly i disagree that asking for explanations when you downvote is the same as complaining about downvotes because that again could have been…

Both your first examples are clearly against HN mods' expectations as a close review of the searches I give above will show. Asking for reasons for disagreement (not downvotes) is legitimate, and I challenge you to find any instances in which mods admonish this practice. Again, the mods' comments form a large body of informal guidance on HN practices. Those practices are explicitly NOT written precisely or in detail…

Both your first examples are clearly against HN mods' expectations as a close review of the searches I give above will show.

i read every single one of those messages before writing my previous comment and i came to a different conclusion.

Asking for reasons for disagreement (not downvotes) is legitimate

my point is that if you apply charitable reading then both are the same thing.

someone asking for reasons for downvotes is simply looking to understand and not to complain.

The root comment in this thread would have been more effective without the downvote-grousing throat clearing

yes, i did mention that too. pointing that out instead of just linking to a moderator message would have been a more effective response too :-)

Re: The room the economy can't see

#293

Post by andrewflnr »

roenxi wrote: post #284
andrewflnr wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read far enough. > Three: teach the economy to do it on its own. This is the one I actually want. Instead of the state hand-picking which good rooms deserve a cheque, you change the rule underneath, so that the people who would run the rooms can simply afford to. He's talking here about giving people enough economic breathing room that they can afford to donate.

Yeah, and his premise is that the market won't do it naturally without central planning to overrule the pricing mechanism (in that section he's hypothesising that a UBI would help). That premise is wrong - the market is already perfectly capable of coming up with communal spaces. And who knows why he thinks a UBI will help, if people don't value something enough to pay for it and they get given an arbitrary sum of mo…

You:

> his premise is that the market won't do it naturally

The author:

> Instead of the state hand-picking which good rooms deserve a cheque

If donation-funded churches are a market mechanism, as you seem to insist on, the author is also advocating market mechanisms.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#294

Post by duskdozer »

the_sleaze_ wrote: post #282
hombre_fatal wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My megachurch growing up had all sorts of teen events including sand volleyball in the summer. But there was always this underlying, uncomfortable "threat" that an adult would approach you to talk about your relationship with god or whatever since that's the whole motive of the place existing. If you're not into that, then you feel out of place. Like being a straight guy at a gay bar who's only there for the happy ho…

I think you have very strong negative opinions about religion without any strong negative experiences. I think that is fair and valid but also worth mentioning. You were uncomfortable but not forced into traumatic situations. You probably absorbed some sense of morality in line with christian values as well. I imagine you did not sense a threat of someone walking up and offering you adderall or cigarettes. If one of…

You're making a lot of assumptions about the parent here. It is not a neutral and comfortable thing to have people looking to proselytize you. You also clearly have positive associations with "christian values", which many do not share. Would you feel just as "a-ok" if the space were designed specifically for adults to have access to teenagers for the purpose of spreading Muslim values, anti-religion values, Satanist values, paganist values, Jehovah's Witness values, even if they weren't clearly "forced into traumatic situations"?

Re: The room the economy can't see

#295

Post by the_sleaze_ »

duskdozer wrote: post #294
the_sleaze_ wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have very strong negative opinions about religion without any strong negative experiences. I think that is fair and valid but also worth mentioning. You were uncomfortable but not forced into traumatic situations. You probably absorbed some sense of morality in line with christian values as well. I imagine you did not sense a threat of someone walking up and offering you adderall or cigarettes. If one of…

You're making a lot of assumptions about the parent here. It is not a neutral and comfortable thing to have people looking to proselytize you. You also clearly have positive associations with "christian values", which many do not share. Would you feel just as "a-ok" if the space were designed specifically for adults to have access to teenagers for the purpose of spreading Muslim values, anti-religion values, Satanist…

Within reason - Yes.

There are 8 billion people on the planet you can tolerate some different world views and decide your own.

This obviously has an acceptable floor of being a safe place for kids to be. Islam, Hinduism, Taoist, any of the world religions, sure. Satanism? We can probably agree that "do as thou wilst" is not an acceptable form of guidance for a 15 year old who will not completely form their brains for another decade. The Unification Church, probably not. Generally accepted as a cult. Latter Day Saints? Sure, the kids could go hang out there.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#296

Post by red-iron-pine »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #222
bluGill wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that as if there is any alternative. Every other system as well has people who are good at psychology spreading propaganda.

they said the same thing about the divine right of kings how could there be an alternative? surely without god or a king everything would fall apart!

HN in a nutshell -- all in on capitalism and divine right of kings.
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