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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#291

Post by carlosjobim »

PhilipRoman wrote: post #239
carlosjobim wrote: post #217

I hate this talk of "justify". Does everybody think they've become an accountant now? Buy your nephew both computers. Or buy the one he prefers. Or buy the one you prefer. People are allowed to own several computers. They are allowed to own several phones. They are allowed to install several web browsers and several text editors. Why are hackers agonizing so much about small and meaningless decisions, which they don'…

Because it costs money? Believe it or not, most places don't pay you 6 digit salaries for shuffling around YAML.

"6 digit salaries" is the second most common hacker trope after "having to justify". You don't need a six digit salary to purchase two laptops.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#292

Post by MBCook »

gosub100 wrote: post #51
cromka wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. People really underestimate or straight up ignore resale value of Apple products. Just because you can upgrade a Framework laptop it doesn't make it a better value over the long term.

Can't believe the cost of the trash can mac pros. I always wanted one and put it on my long term to-do list, but they're still $500+. Even if they can be had for less, I won't buy one because my tolerance for tinkering has since dwindled. But it's quite a testament that they are still that expensive.

They’re a collectors item. And they look cool, not like some of the PPC beige boxes. There’s never been anything else on the market like it.

I doubt it will ever drop. At least not for a long long time.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#293

Post by dabbz »

donmcronald wrote: post #286
866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

My Mac Mini M4 has a distasteful smell when I pin in with AI prompts. And MacOS isn’t super great either. The Remote Desktop options suck and if I leave mine running for a week it can’t function without a reboot. The tech industry might actually be worse than it was 20 years ago.

Software has been riding on the backs of the insane hardware growth curves for the last 20 years. I miss the days of reading about how software engineers had to delete standard C libraries in build time to shave extra memory so they can stream more of the level in.

I also fully acknowledge that change starts with me, unfortunately those changes don't pay the bills.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#294

Post by kybernetikos »

jimmaswell wrote: post #151
dheera wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has a pretty poor display Framework 13 has a very good display while 12 has a crappy display. If I was buying a new laptop the Framework 12 seems like a really nice portable form factor but the crappy screen of the 12 would hold me back.

I have a 12 and the screen is fine. It's no OLED but I have no complaints for what it is. I love it as a secondary tablet-laptop for drawing and reading comics (primary laptop is a Framework 16 which I'm also in love with for Unity3D game dev and similar tasks, that one needs Windows for Visual Studio but I'm enjoying Gentoo on the 12)

There have been a few screen revisions on the 13, so there's a decent chance that a better screen will be available eventually on the 12 as an upgrade.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#295

Post by throwaway894345 »

whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

I would happily jump ship for any competitor that offers solid AI inference benchmarks at a competitive power efficiency, but as far as I can tell Apple owns that market by a pretty big margin. I’m sure someone will point out if I’m wrong.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#296

Post by MBCook »

pseudosavant wrote: post #98
joe_mamba wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought, as an owner of a similar Lenovo, that's top bang for the buck. Also, matte screen and hinge that opens 180 degrees is something the Neo and most Macs doesn't have. Though I assume the Apple clientele is always different than those shopping for PCs, and doesn't care about specs, they just want MacOS and the Apple ecosystem, most likely they already have an iPhone or are planning to get one anyway so then…

It is funny how Mac OS is a draw for some, when it is the main reason I don't use a Mac. Their hardware is excellent, but when I've tried using a Mac as my main machine, my productivity suffered. The only part of the Apple ecosystem I wish I could get on Windows is iMessage, and maybe FaceTime.

I’m way more productive on a Mac.

Different strokes.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#297

Post by throwaway894345 »

donmcronald wrote: post #286
866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

My Mac Mini M4 has a distasteful smell when I pin in with AI prompts. And MacOS isn’t super great either. The Remote Desktop options suck and if I leave mine running for a week it can’t function without a reboot. The tech industry might actually be worse than it was 20 years ago.

I can almost excuse Apple for not being concerned about the relatively niche “mac as a server” use case. The thing that boggles my mind is how their keyboard and autocorrect experience get steadily worse with each release. This is the primary way to interact with their flagship device—the thing that generates an enormous share of their revenue. Why go out of your way to make that worse?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#298

Post by AnthonyMouse »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #110
bigyabai wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors It can be an advantage, it also has downsides though. LPDDR5 is fairly slow as far as GPU memory goes, and on Apple Silicon it splits the bandwidth across the entire chipset. Many recent Macbooks have dGPU-tier hardware constrained by Wintel-laptop memory bandwidth. And if Apple uses DDR5, why not CAMM? If Apple uses NVMe,…

Right now, at this point in time, for applications like local AI and certain types of gaming, I would argue for most people having more VRAM is more useful than having faster VRAM. I personally now do more AI stuff and gaming on my M5 mac with its 24 GB shared (300 GB/s) RAM pool than my 12 GB 5070 Ti (900 GB/s). Apple still lives in its walled garden and defends it vociferously, but I would argue they have made the…

> Right now, at this point in time, for applications like local AI and certain types of gaming, I would argue for most people having more VRAM is more useful than having faster VRAM. I personally now do more AI stuff and gaming on my M5 mac with its 24 GB shared (300 GB/s) RAM pool than my 12 GB 5070 Ti (900 GB/s).

The issue is that this in no way requires soldered memory. CAMM2 supports speeds up to 9600 MT/s. You can get over 300 GB/s from two CAMM2 sockets.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#299

Post by MBCook »

joe_mamba wrote: post #93
deng wrote: post #82

Well, if Apple killed it, Lenovo killed it even more. I recently was looking for a laptop for a student. The Lenovo E14 Gen7 is 800 Euros here in Germany (where prices are always higher, the MacBook Neo is 700 Euros), it has 16GB of RAM, 1TB SSD, a 2.8k IPS display, a Intel Ultra5 12core CPU, and it has a repairability score of 9/10 from ifixit. Framework doesn't even come close to that package.

Same thought, as an owner of a similar Lenovo, that's top bang for the buck. Also, matte screen and hinge that opens 180 degrees is something the Neo and most Macs doesn't have. Though I assume the Apple clientele is always different than those shopping for PCs, and doesn't care about specs, they just want MacOS and the Apple ecosystem, most likely they already have an iPhone or are planning to get one anyway so then…

I like Apple hardware. I like the Apple integration. I like the hardware quality. I LOVE the silence of the M series machines.

But for me you’re right. More than anything, I’m not giving up Mac OS. Despite Tahoe, which I do severely dislike, I’m still far happier using it daily than Windows or Linux.

Until that changes, or the hardware gets bad enough (it’s going in the other direction), I’m not leaving. I don’t even look at other options for my real computers.

“Toy” computers that I want to throw Linux or BSD or something on just to play with, yeah of course. But not what I want to use all day every day.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#300

Post by vondur »

It is really annoying how the x64 CPU's seem to constantly ramp up and down seemingly at random. I've been trying to tweak the fan curves on my Ryzen 9950x to avoid this but haven't been successful yet. Next stop is lowering the voltage once I figure out how to do it on my motherboard.
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