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Using AI to write better code more slowly

nolanlawson.com

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Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#291

Post by locknitpicker »

exe34 wrote: post #177
locknitpicker wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't understand why the code is done in a certain way from reading it then the code is missing comments or needs to be refactored. Code is never missing contexts. If what your code is doing is not obvious to the reader, it is bad code that needs to be fixed. Things like cryptic low-level expressions should be extracted to helper functions with descriptive names or even extracted into a class, and classes ne…

yeah that's how a simple algorithm that would fit on a napkin gets broken up into a soup of ravioli that I have no hope to understand. I often end up refactoring it into a simple function in a branch so I can figure out wtf is going on.

> yeah that's how a simple algorithm that would fit on a napkin gets broken up into a soup of ravioli that I have no hope to understand.

No, not really. You get spaghetti code by being unable to refactor your code to follow inconsistent level of detail across calls. That's the textbook definition.

Once you start to follow basic code quality and software engineering principles, you'll notice right away that your code becomes both easier to understand and to test.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#292

Post by bonoboTP »

I find that it really is effective when you iterate and plan and review, but the problem is more psychological on the human side. It's just too easily available to take the lazy option and just let it do the thing, postpone the thorough reviewing and you end up in a similar situation as tech debt. In an ideal world with no deadline pressure and infinite discipline, AI can be used in productive ways for sure. But when you actually write the code, there is more of a "do you do it or not" switch, and with AI it's a smooth ramp, you can be just a bit less involved or just a bit more. And I end up feeling like I'm not fully involved, I'm halfway working and my whole mind isn't tuned into it properly. I'm not sure how to express it. Also, now several months in, I just don't get the same feeling of accomplishment from the little wins. It's too automatic, doesn't feel earned.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#293

Post by bonoboTP »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #249

Regardless of what model you use, agentic coding tools are indeed pretty good at finding issues if you target them a bit. And they have no respect for their own code or any sense of shame. So, you can just point them at their own code with a new thread. Many AI models seem biased to cutting corners by default when generating code, even when you ask them not to. But a few simple follow up prompts can address that. Sim…

My problem is that it "finds issues" all the time and it never really ends. You go through the list, make a decision on how to go about it, give it back to the AI, it does the changes, you ask for issues again, there are now new issues in part due to the solutions from the previous fixes, now you again assess each issue and it's often valid but you have to ask yourself if it's worth fixing right now and whether the fix is worth the complexity for a super rare edge case, depending on the type of prpgram you make, and often the assessment of what's high or low priority is not great by the AI.

So to me this loop really never properly ends so it never feels like I'm done. Which is not great from a psychological point of view.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#294

Post by convenwis »

bonoboTP wrote: post #292

I find that it really is effective when you iterate and plan and review, but the problem is more psychological on the human side. It's just too easily available to take the lazy option and just let it do the thing, postpone the thorough reviewing and you end up in a similar situation as tech debt. In an ideal world with no deadline pressure and infinite discipline, AI can be used in productive ways for sure. But when…

"It's just too easily available to take the lazy option and just let it do the thing"

This seems to me to be one of the key problems for AI usage in general. Students have this problem where it can be incredibly helpful in actually learning but late at night with the assignment due early tomorrow the temptation is just too strong to have it do the thing.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#295

Post by josephg »

_under_scores_ wrote: post #217
josephg wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as long as it continues to be tangibly better these people will still exist Sure. But how long will that last? LLMs are getting better at programming much faster than I am. Imagine a plot with time on the X axis and LLM skill on the Y axis. The line goes up and to the right. On the left is GPT3, or GPT3.5 with the very first glimmers of programming ability just a few short years ago. In the middle is Opus 4.7 now.…

I think the problem is is that coding is not wholly a 'writing code' problem. It's a translation from idea to outcome. Often I think the bad code generated by an LLM is less to do with it's 'ability' and more to do with an instruction that hasn't adequately accounted for the possibility of what code satisfies the criteria. I'm not sure how a newer model can improve on this per se - sure there will be imrpovement on o…

I was coding something with claude the other day. It got the program working by all externally observable metrics, but when I went into the code it was full of DRY violations. It made a bunch of interrelated - but separate - traits for some concepts which simply didn't fit together.

I asked it to look at the code and come up with better factorings, but it failed. I ended up manually reworking several thousand lines of code myself, via my IDE. It took days.

I'd like a claude-of-the-future to be able to come up with beautiful ways to factor the code itself. Amongst the correct solutions, pick one which is conceptually simple. Write the code in a way that it makes subsequent changes easier to write. If I were doing RL with claude, I'd consider directing it toward solutions which allow subsequent changes to be implemented with as little effort as possible.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#296

Post by leetrout »

bonoboTP wrote: post #292

I find that it really is effective when you iterate and plan and review, but the problem is more psychological on the human side. It's just too easily available to take the lazy option and just let it do the thing, postpone the thorough reviewing and you end up in a similar situation as tech debt. In an ideal world with no deadline pressure and infinite discipline, AI can be used in productive ways for sure. But when…

I discovered something about myself a few years ago... I have to simmer in my work and let my head get wrapped around it.

My visual for this is a capybara soaking

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/capybaras-take...

I am very visual and spatial. The first investment I make in my home or even visiting somewhere for more than 3-4 days where I will need to work without coworking is buying a whiteboard.

So now I'm here with all these tools trying to use a remarkable tablet to draw and show the AI what I'm thinking. It's just not fulfilling. Cleaning toilets isn't either. Lots of jobs have felt like a full on race to software factory and it's clear we're going there with AI and the "cognitive debt" from half (or less) activated brains driving the code generation is going to be massive.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#297

Post by comboy »

bottlepalm wrote: post #4

I've hit this point with AI where it's not a simple process, but a long drawn out back and forth. I'll use AI to design the implementation of a medium sized, cross cutting feature. Review all the details, maybe iterate on just that. Then implement with Claude 4.7 Max - which runs slower, but does a better job. Then review the implementation, then have Codex GPT 5.5 xhigh fast review it - which almost always finds cor…

Have you tried telling claude to review with subagent? It too almost always finds corner cases (usually nothing serious, but most stuff is things that good coder would have thought of)

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#298

Post by comboy »

zrn900 wrote: post #280
bottlepalm wrote: post #4

I've hit this point with AI where it's not a simple process, but a long drawn out back and forth. I'll use AI to design the implementation of a medium sized, cross cutting feature. Review all the details, maybe iterate on just that. Then implement with Claude 4.7 Max - which runs slower, but does a better job. Then review the implementation, then have Codex GPT 5.5 xhigh fast review it - which almost always finds cor…

You could just use Xiaomi Mimo for all of that and it would be cheaper and faster than all of them...

Fun fact, I've recently sent some 你好 to qwen3.7 (API), and it responded with a greeting saying that it was created by Google.

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#299

Post by alexpandey »

TACIXAT wrote: post #30

This article doesn't address writing code with AI, just code review. My issue with agentic coding is that I make numerous micro-architectural decisions while programming. I almost never have a full spec up front and develop one as I consider what I am writing. When using Claude Code or Codex, that is all gone. Claude Code is extremely eager to reach the end goal to the point that it feels like a fever dream to write…

[flagged]

Re: Using AI to write better code more slowly

#300

Post by rtpg »

bottlepalm wrote: post #4

I've hit this point with AI where it's not a simple process, but a long drawn out back and forth. I'll use AI to design the implementation of a medium sized, cross cutting feature. Review all the details, maybe iterate on just that. Then implement with Claude 4.7 Max - which runs slower, but does a better job. Then review the implementation, then have Codex GPT 5.5 xhigh fast review it - which almost always finds cor…

tbh I'm just confused at why people ask AI to design features. Do you not know how to design a feature? Do you not know what you want?

This stuff works so much better when you just tell it what to do

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