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Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

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Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#291
A relatively high share of intelligence and behaviour is depended on genetics which we assume is constant. Education aims to develop the environmental share which has a ceiling but it's all we can do.

Electronic screens have a profound correlation, positive until the 90s and later until today negative. Other independent factors might be financial deterioration and even microplastics. Quantitative estimates vary. I like the comparison with smoking, which started as a status symbol and ended being banned.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#292

Children spend an insane amount of time in school yet it has little results. One overlooked problem is imo that you can't just waste their time with nonsense and get good results. A lot of people in the education system are so full of shit that they believe it's good for children to sit there the whole day. Improving exercises and lectures should be a priority.

> that they believe it's good for children to sit there the whole day

To be perfectly frank....

Learning to sit down and do things you don't like is a fundamental part of education and a necessary life skill for adult employment.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#293

Being a parent, I ask myself this question: is it worth it to struggle to get my child to try for better grades? And I don't have a definitive answer. The reasons to doubt are perfectly known: meritocracy is on a decline in the Western world, there's an ever improving safety net for losers, there's a price to pay for forcing my child to study vs the child spending time with their friends who were left to roam free as…

Why do you want to force your kid to study? Kids are naturally curious, it's likely that your kid will be curious about something . Introduce them to study and scholarship as a means of figuring these things out, so that it becomes natural to them.

Children don't do anything beside simple and pleasing activities unless forced to. Studying is hard, not immediately rewarding and boring. No child likes to study, some are just more pliable.

> Kids are naturally curious

This curiosity extends to simple facts (like "who's the best soccer player: Messi or Ronaldo?") it doesn't help with important subjects that need studying (like, how do you prove Pythagoras' theorem).

> Introduce them to study and scholarship as a means of figuring these things out, so that it becomes natural to them.

Children simply don't "work" like that. If you let children "figure things out", they'll "figure out" if Messi or Ronaldo are the best soccer player, and they will never even ask why is the sum of squares of the catheti equals the square of hypotenuse. Not only will they never ask that, they'll never figure out there are right triangles. Some discoveries in human knowledge took us many generations to make and some are trivial and easily discoverable. The former is difficult for people to learn. It requires effort that doesn't result in instant gratification. It's boring because often you will have to read the same thing many times over. It's frustrating because even after having read the same thing you still might not understand it. You have to be a masochist to like doing that. Generally, people who do it, don't do it because they like it. They like the side effects (eg. you may like to be paid a professor's salary, and so you'd grind the subject you want to be a professor in).

So, it never becomes "natural" to anyone, especially not to the children outside of the very few very simple things one might learn in this way. Left to their own devices, maybe half of all the children would love to become YouTube influencers who make their living by streaming the video games they play. They'd never even consider becoming an accountant or an engineer. They wouldn't even know accountants or engineers exist.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#294
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because _real_ study is boring. Watching videos on Youtube or playing "educational games" is not studying. You need to repeatedly solve multiple practical problems to internalize the knowledge. And you'll eventually need to do stuff that you don't really like at all.

The proper response to that is still not to force your kid to study though. Instead, she should be made aware that in order to consistently do well, she is ultimately expected to gain the ability to force herself and defer the immediate gratification of watching a YouTube video (unless that YouTube video is a boring recorded college lecture that's relevant to her studies, I suppose).

This fails with a sizeable portion of adults... and you expect children to somehow understand delayed gratification? To force themselves? Have you ever met an actual child?

Just a week ago mine found and devoured a pack of cookies that were meant for supper and then cried at supper that there weren't any cookies left, choking on a hated apple instead.

Guess he won't do it again in a week if there's another pack of cookies in the hand's reach? Guess again!

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper response to that is still not to force your kid to study though. Instead, she should be made aware that in order to consistently do well, she is ultimately expected to gain the ability to force herself and defer the immediate gratification of watching a YouTube video (unless that YouTube video is a boring recorded college lecture that's relevant to her studies, I suppose).

This fails with a sizeable portion of adults... and you expect children to somehow understand delayed gratification? To force themselves ? Have you ever met an actual child? Just a week ago mine found and devoured a pack of cookies that were meant for supper and then cried at supper that there weren't any cookies left, choking on a hated apple instead. Guess he won't do it again in a week if there's another pack of c…

> Just a week ago mine found and devoured a pack of cookies that were meant for supper and then cried at supper that there weren't any cookies left

This was famously tested with the Stanford marshmallow experiment. A sizeable fraction of kids - preschool kids, no less - can in fact learn not to eat the marshmallow.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#296
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funding per student is on the rise, or level on inflation-adjusted $ That's at the state level. But that doesn't account for the explosion in admin salaries and positions. The actual money a district spends on each student has been going down every year. Those funds are going more towards admin activities. > I got ahold of all the teachers I knew and asked them what impact it would have, and their response was most…

It's crazy to pay income taxes to the federal government and then have the Department of Education turn around and grant that money back to the several states so they can use it to fund public school districts. A lot of those tax dollars get wasted along the way. Better to cut out the middlemen and send property and/or income taxes directly to local governments, with some state level aid for poor areas with low tax r…

That leads to a problem (which you partly addressed with the state level aid) of linking education funding with the wealth of the area which I suspect should be inversely linked i.e. poor areas need more funding and wealthy areas require less as the kids are typically in a more stable situation and aren't skipping meals.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#297
post #56
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If increasing spending had almost no impact over time why would cutting spending have an impact?

Unfortunately there is much more to the story than a number on a line. Just because you increase spending doesn't mean that the spending isn't earmarked for items like digital projectors and virtual textbooks that have minimal impact on learning outcomes.

So theoretically if your spending was hiring more and better teachers and better HVAC and more/smaller classes then spending would and has experimentally been verified to have an impact. Especially if you also paired it with getting rid of teacher who don't meet the bar.

But as a practical matter that is not what happens when a campaign to increase funding for a school happens. The problem is not insufficient money, the problem is not enough skill and political will in how you spend the money.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#299
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math, reading and writing are all accomplished by repetition and building muscle memory. The adults in the room saying you don't need that in order to learn are doing a disservice to the next generation. There is also a lot of busy work but again work and being able to do work, sustain focus requires the development of that skill and muscle. Especially in this day and age where everyone is vying for your attention.

Nah, only the dullards need a lot of repetition. I've seen brighter kids pick those subjects up extremely quickly.

All kids need repetition to learn - the level of repetition is dependent on the children. There is a 0% part of the population that picks up math or language without repeats. Also, work ethic and grinding is part of every humans life - there are 0 jobs without an aspect of grind and work. Much like learning, research and discovery requires grit which can be learned.

If you want to argue some children learn faster and can level up faster thats obviously a true statement.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#300

I'll throw in my own $1.50 , inflation and all. There's definitely loads of money in "education". But the actual teachers arent seeing it. No, its in "special interest programs", state/federal compliance, loads of tests, and ordained material from "preferred creators" (cough, pearson etm.) We can pay teachers better, sure. But there's lots of areas to "pay better". Small classes. 12-17 students. Budget for class reso…

"But the actual teachers arent seeing it." There are multiple teachers in my local school district whose total compensation is well over $200k: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=school-... And, no, this isn't mainly overtime pay. So they're getting paid this much even though they work only 80% as many days as people with normal jobs. If you multiply the compensation numbers by 100/80 to make them c…

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teacher-pay...

Cherrypicking the most expensive area in the country does not defend your claim. Sure, the most expensive locale in the country has a few up there, but even CA's average is 101K.

Most of the Midwest is 55-65k. And frankly, given the responsibility, is shit pay.

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