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GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

cli.github.com

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Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#291

Post by ravenstine »

a2128 wrote: post #14

Why we collect telemetry ...our team needs visibility into how features are being used in practice. We use this data to prioritize our work and evaluate whether features are meeting real user needs. I'm curious why corporate development teams always feel the need to spy on their users? Is it not sufficient to employ good engineering and design practices? Git has served us well for 20+ years without detailed analytics…

"Real" numbers make it easier for them to lie to leadership who then use or ignore those lies to justify decisions they were already going to make in spite of users.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#292

Post by mcmcmc »

Sytten wrote: post #161
jubilanti wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, it really is sad how literally unthinkable it is to you and so much of the industry that you could actually talk to your users and customers like human beings instead of just data points. And you know what happens when you reach out to talk to your customers like human beings instead of spying on them like animals? They like you more and they raise issues that your telemetry would never even think to measure. It…

You are inferring your own perception based on my comment, no need to be an asshole here. Like I said elsewhere we do both and they serve different purpose. We also make is very clear and easy to disable in the onboarding. I hope you try to build a business sometimes and open up your perspectives that maybe just maybe you don't have all the answers.

You stated that you are blind without analytics, which heavily implies other forms of user research are useless and don’t provide meaningful signal. I don’t think an assumption that you’re not using other methods is that outrageous.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#293

Post by KronisLV »

skydhash wrote: post #211
KronisLV wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious why corporate development teams always feel the need to spy on their users? Cause the alternative is viewing all of your app as one opaque blob - you don't know exactly how it's being used, which features actually need your attention, especially if you're spread thin. If you're in consulting or something like that and the clients haven't let you configure and/or access analytics (and the same goes for A…

> you don't know exactly how it's being used, which features actually need your attention, especially if you're spread thin. Why not conduct a survey? > vague bug reports instead of automated session recording and if you need to maintain that, you'll have gray hairs appearing by the age of 30. If it's a customer, why not reach directly to him? > with the system working okay at a load X, but falling over at X+1 and yo…

> Why not conduct a survey?

Large amounts of time before getting feedback, low percentage of people responding, not an accurate sample of all users (you will get signal from the loudest ones) and inaccurate data (biases in perception) instead of measurable reality. Not useless, but not a full replacement for telemetry.

> If it's a customer, why not reach directly to him?

Layers of indirection (and also the slowness of getting through them). You might not control the processes and approvals needed to do that in a non-startup environment. You will probably control enough of the app to add various technical solutions to aid you in collecting information.

> No one is talking about telemetry on your servers.

I am. Culture of not collecting client side data also often comes together with a culture of not collecting server side data properly either. Competent teams will evaluate both. My argument is that all of this data can meaningfully help in development and that other approaches don't replace it well enough.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#294

Post by paulddraper »

a2128 wrote: post #14

Why we collect telemetry ...our team needs visibility into how features are being used in practice. We use this data to prioritize our work and evaluate whether features are meeting real user needs. I'm curious why corporate development teams always feel the need to spy on their users? Is it not sufficient to employ good engineering and design practices? Git has served us well for 20+ years without detailed analytics…

To state the obvious, "good engineering/design practices" will not tell you what features are used or not.

> Git has served us well for 20+ years

Funny. I think that, but the usual HN narrative is that Git is UX hostile.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#295

Post by paulddraper »

johnfn wrote: post #103
embedding-shape wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only flying blind if you make decisions not looking and thinking. Analytics isn't the only way to figure out "what your users actually care about", you can also try the old school way, commonly referred to as "Talking with people", then after taking notes, you think about it, maybe discuss with others. Don't take what people say at face value, but think about it together with your knowledge and experience, and…

Sure, you can spend the weeks to months of expensive and time consuming work it takes to get a fuzzy, half accurate and biased picture of what your users workflows look like through user interviews and surveys. Or you can look at the analytics, which tell you everything you need to know immediately, always up to date, with perfect precision. Sometimes HN drives me crazy. From this thread you’d think telemetry is scre…

> Sometimes HN drives me crazy.

You can tell the difference between those who build businesses and those who simply use them.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#296

Post by johannes1234321 »

johnfn wrote: post #103
embedding-shape wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only flying blind if you make decisions not looking and thinking. Analytics isn't the only way to figure out "what your users actually care about", you can also try the old school way, commonly referred to as "Talking with people", then after taking notes, you think about it, maybe discuss with others. Don't take what people say at face value, but think about it together with your knowledge and experience, and…

Sure, you can spend the weeks to months of expensive and time consuming work it takes to get a fuzzy, half accurate and biased picture of what your users workflows look like through user interviews and surveys. Or you can look at the analytics, which tell you everything you need to know immediately, always up to date, with perfect precision. Sometimes HN drives me crazy. From this thread you’d think telemetry is scre…

There are two aspects of that:

1) Metrics lead to wrong conclusion. There is software which has extremely rarely used features, I need it once or twice a year only, but the ability is why I use the software to begin with. If metrics get too much attention such things are removed as being unimportant ...

2) a lot of the tracking happening is way too intrusive and intransparent. There are valid use cases, however some large corporations especially, in the last had cases where they collected way too much, including private information, without really giving information about it. That overshadows good cases.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#297

Post by atoav »

johnfn wrote: post #103
embedding-shape wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only flying blind if you make decisions not looking and thinking. Analytics isn't the only way to figure out "what your users actually care about", you can also try the old school way, commonly referred to as "Talking with people", then after taking notes, you think about it, maybe discuss with others. Don't take what people say at face value, but think about it together with your knowledge and experience, and…

Sure, you can spend the weeks to months of expensive and time consuming work it takes to get a fuzzy, half accurate and biased picture of what your users workflows look like through user interviews and surveys. Or you can look at the analytics, which tell you everything you need to know immediately, always up to date, with perfect precision. Sometimes HN drives me crazy. From this thread you’d think telemetry is scre…

Yes, but the answer to "how many people clicked that button" is irrelevant if it describes the outside world. This id like concluding something is wrong with umbrellas because none of the users in the desert opened them.

If the questions you have can be answered by simple telemetry you are likely asking the wrong questions. E.g. a confused user will click all the buttons, while one thst efficiently uses your software to solve a very specific problem may always ever press the ssme ones.

The actually interesting questions are all about how your software empowers users to deal with the things they have to deal with. Ideally with as little buttons as possible. And if once a year they need that other button it will be there.

It is very easy to draw the wrong conclusions from telemetry.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#298

Post by azalemeth »

One thing I noticed is that github's "clone" drop down menu used to include instructions on how to do so via git git (i.e. `git clone /path/to/repo`). Now there are only instructions provided by default for `gh`, their client.

I can't help but guess if these are related.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#299

Post by dpark »

embedding-shape wrote: post #65
Sytten wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe that it was not necessary until I started building my own startup. If you dont have analytics you are flying blind. You don't know what your users actually care about and how to optimize a successful user journey. The difference between what people tell you when asked directly and how they actually use your software is actually shocking.

You're only flying blind if you make decisions not looking and thinking. Analytics isn't the only way to figure out "what your users actually care about", you can also try the old school way, commonly referred to as "Talking with people", then after taking notes, you think about it, maybe discuss with others. Don't take what people say at face value, but think about it together with your knowledge and experience, and…

> Don't take what people say at face value, but think about it together with your knowledge and experience

While you’re comparing different information sources, you might even want to consider telemetry, too.

Re: GitHub CLI now collects pseudoanonymous telemetry

#300

Post by dpark »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #259
hombre_fatal wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking users isn't a substitute for usage data. Usage data is the ground truth. Soliciting user feedback is invasive, and it's only possible for some questions. The HN response to this is "too bad" but it's a thought-terminating response.

The ground truth that I never click on Stargate on Netflix is completely at odds with the actual truth that I love Stargate and want more of it and things like it. What the ground truth usage data is completely ignorant of is that Netflix's copy is a crappy blurry transfer, and so I got dvds instead.

Telemetry doesn’t tell the “why”. You never clicking in Stargate in Netflix is apparently true, so the telemetry isn’t wrong. It just doesn’t answer why.
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