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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#291

This barely mentions Windows Forms, which is the cleanest and fastest way to code Windows GUI apps. A few years ago, I wanted to prototype something quick and I wrote it in Windows Forms over C# (all code, no visual editor).

I always felt the problem with WinForms was the name. For many, many years I assumed it could only do forms (ie for data entry).

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#292
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

I feel that some people are just too old to get used to the swipe based ui. I mean friends of mine who just keep buying the only phones with (screen based) back and home buttons.

I could get used to touch gestures if they were more consistent and tolerant enough for wrong inputs. It may work in one app but not another. One app expects me to swipe from left to right to go back, another wants me to swipe from top to bottom for the same thing. It may mark an email as unread if I start the swipe a pixel too far away from the screen edge. On Android swipe gestures may vary even on different phones from the same brand. In iOS, tapping the top edge of the screen means scroll to the top. Except in the Photo app, where it means "scroll to the top of the current section, or almost the top, or do nothing and make the user guess if they just tapped the wrong way".

Meanwhile when there's an X button or arrow to the left I always know what it's going to do aside from one or two overly creative Android apps.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#293
post #272
post #257

When a platform can’t answer “how should I build a UI?” in under ten seconds, it has failed its developers. Full stop. That's fine, except no platform answers this. Obviously Linux doesn't, but the Mac doesn't either. Apple of course has it's recommendation, but most developers do not take Apple's recommended path because of course, it's Apple-only, most developers make cross-platform apps these days. Even if Microso…

Linux can answer the question, but you're considering Linux as a monolithic platform which it isn't. If you ask "how do you build a UI for Gnome / KDE / Android?" then the answers are pretty clear.

Also, being KDE native means using QT which is a good cross platform toolkit anyways.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#294
post #157

> WPF shipped in late 2006. It was remarkable – XAML, hardware-accelerated rendering, real data binding. If Microsoft had made it the definitive answer and invested relentlessly, the story might have ended differently. Er… The author perhaps never used it? WPF was the worst framework I ever used. It was unbearably verbose, brutally unforgiving, used 2-way bindings that created updating nightmares, ans not the least i…

All that and they abandoned it at birth. It never felt finished and got little to no attention for years.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#295
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

I feel that some people are just too old to get used to the swipe based ui. I mean friends of mine who just keep buying the only phones with (screen based) back and home buttons.

It's not just that you need to get used to gestures, it's that they are not discoverable at all, and that they can be awkward to perform with mobility issues, old hands, short fingers, etc. It's easy to make the wrong gesture, eg. the phone detects a swipe down instead of left to right, more so if you are holding it in one hand, so it's finicky and frustrating to have to rely on it as the only way of doing a common action. Why is it so wrong to have a simple navigation bar, it doesn't take up any more space than the hideous notch at the top?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#296
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snide and subjective comments aside, you’ve clearly missed their point. Even if you take away subjective opinions on Liquid Glass, the point is that the core system updates things across the board. Unless apps have implemented custom drawing, you get a consistent-ish UI (for better or worse) across the system, whereas with windows you are beholden to whatever hodge podge of UI frameworks were chosen at the given time…

The size and losition of the traffic lights control is not dependent of the os the app runs on but on the os the app was compiled on. So things are not updated across the board

I found this out when I tried running an old app I compiled on MacOS several years ago, it still has the old title bar gradient and traffic light.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#297

As an outsider, it always felt that 'internal team politics' were the root cause of Microsoft's technological downfall. This went far beyond the GUI. In 'flagship' offerings like SharePoint or Skype/Lync/Teams you could see the unmixable partial code-bases brutally forced together under a single product name an foisted upon a user-base baffled by how this could have gone so wrong.

A single product name, you say? COPILOT, COPILOT, COPILOT!

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#298

WPF was atrocious from the beginning and Microsoft absolutely did the right thing by not basing everything in Windows on it. Every WPF program was laggy and took ages to even start up (is everyone forgetting hard disk speeds?), partly due to it being managed code. The components didn't feel native either, and the coupling to managed code and garbage collection basically ensured all those would be perpetual issues. Ye…

I’m not sure I would blame the problems of WPF on managed code. After all we had snappy WinForms applications before WPF came along.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#299
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple products are so compelling why are so many devs using Electron, React Native and Flutter on macOS, to the point it deserved being mentioned at WWDC 2025 State of the Nation Keynote? My point was don't throw stones when having a big glass roof as well. Apple isn't the perfection you make out to be, also has a rich history of failures, and only did not went bankrupt due to sheer luck of doing the right decisio…

Nobody in this thread is claiming Apple is perfect, just ahead of MS in UI consistency and _less_ buggy

"Ahead" with yes but attitude.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#300
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple products are so compelling why are so many devs using Electron, React Native and Flutter on macOS, to the point it deserved being mentioned at WWDC 2025 State of the Nation Keynote? My point was don't throw stones when having a big glass roof as well. Apple isn't the perfection you make out to be, also has a rich history of failures, and only did not went bankrupt due to sheer luck of doing the right decisio…

That's a different issue. Things like Electron are popular not because native development is buggy, but because most developers these days are web developers . They know Javascript. They've never written anything in C/C++ or even the slightly friendlier Swift, Rust, or Go. Electron lets people who only know the Web make desktop apps.

Nope, it is the same issue now being worded around to sell the Apple is shiny story above.
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