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Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

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Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#291
> The loudest “pronatalists” (Musk, Andreessen) spent two years killing workplace flexibility while funding nearly a billion in elite fertility tech.

So that you can still go to work, and procreate- Win-win for the masters.

Additionally I would not take Musk as the voice of reason, as he has demonstrated borderline behavior if not complete irrationality on this kind of issues in the past (and why should he have a word in this anyway?).

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#292
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in most of Europe. Most of the CEE along with Western European countries like Netherlands and Ireland have ass-in-seat requirements for American companies to unlock FDI subsidizes when opening a GCC. Additionally, management culture in London as well as Paris is very hybrid work oriented. There is a decent proliferation of WFH roles in Europe, but those are the same roles in the US anyhow - we're posting those in…

As a German living in Germany, I had the impression most companies here are anti-WFH. It got better with COVID, but you still have to dig, to find something 100% remote.

100% remote is rare, yes. But 30-80% WFH is quite widespread in office jobs.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people want their government services to continue to work without destroying the economies that support them, it absolutely is a political issue.

Oh, and how do you propose politics is even able to have an impact? Force people to have sex with each other? It may be an ideology but I don’t think this is a red/blue topic and certainly not a legislative one imo. It is more of a geographical issue and a byproduct of industrialism that isn’t really reversible, you just hope the ride down is more of a slope and not a cliff.

If I knew how to solve the problem, I'd have proposed it. Yet, this is certainly a political issue. As populations decline, the smaller and smaller generations will be asked to support older generations, keep government services afloat, and so on. If nothing is done, at some point, the advanced, post industrial societies will become poor agrarian societies, infrastructure will decay, and governments will collapse. Then, people will begin having large families again because they will have no choice. Farms need hands.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, much of the US, and elsewhere, has been taken in by decades of successful American propaganda promoting and romanticizing the suburb after the War. The taste for the suburb, like the taste for cars, is very entrenched in many people's minds. In our vapid consumerist culture, they have become elevated to virtual rites of passage: buying a car and buying a suburban house are marks of manhood and adulthoo…

Your solution to "the stupidity of the housing markets in cities" is to increase their demand, and to make housing overall more unaffordable? Sorry, no, I'm not going to raise my family of six plus a dog in a high rise. Encouraging happy, productive families by subsidizing suburbs is good.

> increase their demand, and to make housing overall more unaffordable?

You're not thinking systematically. Increased demand isn't the only variable. Consider also how gov't and the market respond to increased demand and need, especially if the paradigm of normative human settlement changes. Social pressure forces changes. Diffusing pressure allows gov'ts to kick the can down the road, which is what led to the suburban debacle.

> I'm not going to raise my family of six plus a dog in a high rise.

Where did I say you must live in a high rise? Urban development isn't limited to high rises. Small towns and cities exist, yes? It's a question of density and particular patterns of urban planning that enable a healthy social environment. Traditional urban planning did a far better job of that than the suburb.

And btw, what's the problem having a large family in a high rise? Living in a high rise actually reduces the maintenance costs (both in terms of time and money). Owning a suburban house comes with more overhead. In well-designed cities, there is ample green space. In a landscape dotted with cities, you are also within reach of more expansive natural landscapes that haven't been spoiled, scarred, and deformed by sprawling suburbs.

> Encouraging happy, productive families by subsidizing suburbs is good.

I assure you: the suburb is neither good for families nor productive. They are extraordinarily wasteful. Children are shackled and isolated at home, because getting anywhere requires driving. Parents are then burdened with the task of driving their children everywhere or making arrangements. You can't do or buy anything without driving. People waste countless hours commuting. And as I already wrote, it is very expensive to maintain suburban utilities. It takes a lot more energy to keep the suburban machine running. Suburbs are basically on gov't welfare funded by city tax payers.

This naturally comes off as entitled: entitled not to live in a high rise (which, as I said, is not necessarily entailed by the word "city", so rather moot) and entitled to subsidies that drain resources from cities. Why don't suburbs pay for the luxury of their own existence? Funding them is not a matter of the common good, nor is it charity. It's exploitation of others to satisfy a private fetish and fantasy, one that incidentally harms the common good.

I encourage you to visit Strong Towns[0]. There's plenty of material there that targets a popular audience that covers this subject. You might find these ideas less threatening than the urban boogeyman of your mind.

[0] https://www.strongtowns.org/

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nail guns are tools, just like hammers. However, you have to know how to use it and to know how to adjust the pressure for the depth you need. It also costs money, much more than a hammer. And you can't use normal nails, you have to have a specific cartridge of nails, and you must know how to adjust it, and ultimately to not die. Now compare it again.

I think it's a fair comparison; experienced carpenters who've learned to work fast with a hammer, now asked to be 10x more productive while using a new tool they don't have experience with. It probably got more than a few a bit bothered.

There are very few contractors still swinging a hammer. They're going to be slower and more expensive than the competition, which is a major factor in getting the job.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, ignore the natural experiment that is unfolding before our very eyes, and gain nothing at all from the war that is causing it. Like the saying goes: lemons -> lemonade

There's no lemonade to be found here at this time. What there is to be found are a bunch of tone-deaf people who seem utterly ignorant and indifferent to the war's reality.

Obviously there is, you just refuse to recognize it. I think this war is terrible, Trump is the worst president of American history by a wide margin, and yet, I can still be happy that we are able to glean insight from learnings that came about as a result of forces not under my control.

Finding good among the bad is such a commonplace occurrence that my native tongue, English, has many metaphors for it. I already mentioned making lemons into lemonade; there is also "every cloud has a silver lining," "every dog has his day," "light at the end of the tunnel," and "April showers bring May flowers"

I suspect you would respond, "but Mayflowers brought genocidal white settlers!!!!"

That's your problem, not mine.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#297
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true, do you have a cite for this other than stories that make national news like Amazon's HQ? Even if it happens for more than outlier examples like that, this would only happen for huge companies that can meaningfully move the economy of large urban centers. So maybe top-5 level huge companies in mid-market cities, but 99.9999% of companies wouldn't qualify for that.

Alright, let's agree that it only happens for the top 5% of companies. Then the leadership of those companies come out and make big announcements on how WFH is dead. ... everyone else follows because, "Amazon's doing it.."

Just to be clear, I'm not saying nobody implements RTO just because Amazon implemented RTO and they're a bunch of lemmings. I'm 100% that happens for more than a couple companies.

I don't think any companies move into cities with agreements they will meaningfully increase foot traffic in large urban centers, certainly not with any sort of true repercussions if they don't. That just simply does not happen.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think Musk and Andreesseen are who most people would associate with the concept of pronatalism. Musk is for sure. Doesn't he have like 100 kids because he's constantly trying to get women to become pregnant by his sperm?

I associate the concept of pronatalism with also wanting to be involved in your kids' lives, which Musk seems to have no interest in.

You can't be as deeply involved in your kids' lives if you've got 8 of them. There is a reason why every large family has sibling-parents.

Visible elements of pronatalism are largely focused on assigning a particular family role to women and trying to increase the supply of a particular kind of desirable baby (often white, but sometimes focused on IQ selection and other eugenic elements).

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people want their government services to continue to work without destroying the economies that support them, it absolutely is a political issue.

Oh, and how do you propose politics is even able to have an impact? Force people to have sex with each other? It may be an ideology but I don’t think this is a red/blue topic and certainly not a legislative one imo. It is more of a geographical issue and a byproduct of industrialism that isn’t really reversible, you just hope the ride down is more of a slope and not a cliff.

Banning birth control and reversing efforts to enable women's equality in the work force are big ones. But we also see it in policies like the Trump Accounts and various proposals to pay people who have larger families. And you can see it but up against immigration policy too, where people who hate immigrants seek to replace the economic benefits of immigration with policies that promote a larger white population in the next generation.

Re: Silicon Valley's "Pronatalists" Killed WFH. The Strait of Hormuz Brought It Back

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I associate the concept of pronatalism with also wanting to be involved in your kids' lives, which Musk seems to have no interest in.

You can't be as deeply involved in your kids' lives if you've got 8 of them. There is a reason why every large family has sibling-parents. Visible elements of pronatalism are largely focused on assigning a particular family role to women and trying to increase the supply of a particular kind of desirable baby (often white, but sometimes focused on IQ selection and other eugenic elements).

I only know one family with >=8 kids (they have 10) and not that well so I can't really comment on them. I know many with 4-6 kids though. It's true that in most cases the women have a traditional family role (not always though, I know one couple where the wife is a very successful cardiologist and the husband is an athletic trainer). Parental involvement is usually higher in these families than among the 2-3 children, 2 professional parent families I know, mostly because one parent is either not working or working in a reduced capacity.

The eugenics part doesn't match my experience at all. I've never seen any evidence that people who are having large families are motivated by that.

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