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I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

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Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#291
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that taboos should not be examined from within the space where they hold effect, because doing so calls into question the whole concept of a taboo and robs all taboos of their usefulness, and that would summon evidence for, or even cause cultural decline? That sounds suspiciously like something a taboo would say that has something to fear from being looked at. ;) I think…

Not should, can't. The assertion I'm referring to is that once something can be rationally discussed it's no longer a taboo, and once a culture has no taboos it has no real vitality or potential for growth left. Nothing there about causing cultural decline, just evidence of it, and thereby limits on the kind of culture that can host the attitude you describe.

> once something can be rationally discussed it's no longer a taboo

This appears to be an entirely impractical definition, to the point that it would not allow a taboo to ever exist in a group of people capable of any sort of rational discussion. Any two moderately curious and independently-minded people could simply destroy any taboo by talking about it. They could even do it on purpose, using this fatal weakness.

Taboos, as in: the actual attitudes and behaviors of people, do not simply disappear the moment they are named or even questioned. I think we have to allow for taboos to be more nuanced, or we will struggle to describe the actual, interesting phenomenon, let alone do anything useful with it.

> once a culture has no taboos it has no real vitality or potential for growth left

That's an extraordinary claim on multiple levels, even when allowing for different ideas of what taboos are and how they work. I already mentioned some questions this raises, which makes it surprising to find the naked claim simply restated, in an even stronger form.

It's the kind of sentence that can sound really deep and powerful in passing, but when you look at it, is really only a huge, gaping question mark in a fancy dress.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#292

Directness can be taken to imply trustworthiness, as the author seems to be doing. But it can just as easily be taken as a sign of ineptitude, technical-mindedness, boorishness, courage, immaturity, confidence, impatience, or a dozen other attributes depending on context and participants. For that reason, reading this is like reading a blog on poker strategies from someone who is only vaguely aware there are differen…

Agree, and you use especially good analogies here!

As I've moved from an IC into a leadership position, I've had to learn to employ a variety of different communication styles beyond "super direct" which is what I did at the beginning — almost all of which were learned as a result of undesired side effects of directness.

As they say: Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment... and s/judgment/communication.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the fact that you don't see a problem with saying "he deserved it" as justification is the signal not to hire.

The fact that you only want to hire workers who won’t call you out when they feel like they have been disrespected is a great way to breed a team of people who resent you. Regardless, you kind of proved what I was trying to say. Most people don’t actually want directness. The fact that when I was direct with someone you’re treating it like some mafioso retribution is telling.

You know what they say about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? By the time they realize it, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes!

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#294
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is "pointing out something that bothers you" which was the first part of the story. But, the reaction to interviewer who tries to explain himself "Listen, I don't really care. I'm sure your reasons are valid to you but from my perspective it just looks like you were happy enough to let me waste half the interview just sitting around staring at my watch." is an asshole reaction. And yes, if roles were reverts, t…

I mean, sure, but I didn’t really care. Why should him being busy matter to me? For all he knows I am equally or more busy than he is. For all he knows I am skipping my mother’s funeral, or taking the entire day off of work, or turned down a dozen other potential interviews just to make this interview. I will admit it’s a bit douchey, but why should I just nod my head happily and pretend that his excuses actually mat…

Because it demonstrates flexibility. But I can imagine contexts in which impeccable punctuation is far, far more important.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#295
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not should, can't. The assertion I'm referring to is that once something can be rationally discussed it's no longer a taboo, and once a culture has no taboos it has no real vitality or potential for growth left. Nothing there about causing cultural decline, just evidence of it, and thereby limits on the kind of culture that can host the attitude you describe.

> once something can be rationally discussed it's no longer a taboo This appears to be an entirely impractical definition, to the point that it would not allow a taboo to ever exist in a group of people capable of any sort of rational discussion. Any two moderately curious and independently-minded people could simply destroy any taboo by talking about it. They could even do it on purpose, using this fatal weakness. T…

Would you also say that no Overton window could ever exist in a group of people capable of any sort of rational discussion?

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see is taboos assume the act is always wrong, and preclude consideration for edge cases where it might be the lesser wrong. Consider the incest taboo--yeah, there are very good reasons for this. Should you enter a sexual relationship with a relative? I think society is better off prohibiting this. But what about "What, my wife is actually my sister????" Is forcing them to divorce actually the best answe…

The only thing wrong with incest is the child. We put a lot of focus on this but not other kinds of ‘bad’ genes like hereditary diseases. To me taboos is just society taking shortcuts. This is fine, but lets admit that we are taking shortcuts.

I'd agree- I think the analysis I was referring to believed that analyzing a taboo makes it no longer useful as a shortcut. Guess that didn't come across enough for anyone to offer a refutation.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#297

I agree with the sentiment that gratuitous happy-talk adds noise to what ought to be clear, bottom-line-up-front engineering communications. But the recipients of those communications are people, and most people have feelings. So a good engineer ought to optimize those communications for overall success, and that means treating the intended recipients as if they matter. Some human-level communication is usually benef…

"seems to be causing" is also an excellent alternative to "it looks like" that doesn't hinge on visual-sensory primacy, and tends to translate slightly less ambiguously across language-familiarity boundaries due to 'seems' having more precise meaning re: uncertainty than 'looks', 'feels', 'sounds'. Or you could abbreviate to "could be" / "may be" / "might be" (non-high certainty), "is probably" (high certainty) if th…

I feel like this is why the communication medium matters so much to how things are perceived. There is like this extra layer nuance and detail that is critical in email/chat and must be accounted for. Like the "Thanks!" thing. It's darn near impossible to hear the tone of someone's voice in email. So for me, the "Thanks!" ending kinda defaults to sounding like "Ha ha! It's your problem now!" in my head. Which may, or may not be completely wrong.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the enlightenment not have a taboo around questioning e.g. the fundamental equality of all human beings?

My impression was that that taboo first got a firm foothold a couple of hundred years later, after the second world war showed what industrialised genocide looks like. How could the fundamental equality of all humans otherwise have been accepted as true and taboo to talk about at the same time as women being denied suffrage until the early 19-hundreds, or eugenics being openly discussed well into the 1930ies?

Precisely by being protected from this kind of rigorous practical analysis!

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#299
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m curious why you perceive their statement to be made as if it’s a pronouncement from God and not a simply a statement of their view on the issue. To me it's basic grammar. The sentence structure is approximately: X is Y. I consider this a statement of fact, or perhaps en equivalence relation. This is what was labeling a pronouncement from God. (The idea that how your audience receives the communication is their…

It’s not a case of “try harder”. My only point was that emotions run through all human interactions. That’s how it actually is. People very, very frequently make decisions based entirely on emotion and then produce a logical argument post hoc for the decision. It’s valuable to be aware of how humans actually act.

I also completely agree.

My "try harder" was with regard to doing exactly what I had just had an emotional reaction to and criticized.

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