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US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

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Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#291
post #167

I trust Telegram more: Putin never had any problems with Whatsapp, only with Telegram.

No end-to-end encryption by default. WhatsApp has.

No end-to-end encryption for groups. WhatsApp has.

No end-to-end encryption on desktop. WhatsApp has.

No break-in key-recovery. WhatsApp has.

Inferring Telegram's security from public statements of *checks notes* former KGB officer and FSB director -- agencies that wrote majority of the literature in maskirovka, isn't exactly reliable, wouldn't you agree?

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#292

Ex-WhatsApp engineer here. WhatsApp team makes so much effort to make this end to end encrypted messages possible. From the time I worked I know for sure it is not possible to read the encrypted messages. From business standpoint they don’t have to read these messages, since WhatsApp business API provide the necessary funding for the org as a whole.

[flagged]

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#293

Ex-WhatsApp engineer here. WhatsApp team makes so much effort to make this end to end encrypted messages possible. From the time I worked I know for sure it is not possible to read the encrypted messages. From business standpoint they don’t have to read these messages, since WhatsApp business API provide the necessary funding for the org as a whole.

Facebook has never been satisfied with direct funding. The value is in selling attention and influencing users’ behavior.

This is why most tech founders who go big never retire, even as billionaires. The power they gain, only the wisest would refuse.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect to Stallman, you can actually study binaries. The claim Stallman would make (after punishing you for using Open Source instead of Free Software for an hour) is that Closed Software (Proprietary Software) is unjust. but in the context of security, the claim would be limited to Free Software being capable of being secure too. You may be able to argue that Open Source reduces risk in threat models w…

This comment comes across as unnecessarily aggressive and out of nowhere (Stallman?), it's really hard to parse. Does this rewording reflect it's meaning? "You don't actually need code to evaluate security, you can analyze a binary just as well." Because that doesn't sound correct? But that's just my first pass, at a high level. Don't wanna overinterpret until I'm on surer ground about what the dispute is. (i.e. don'…

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Whether the original comment knows it or not, Stallman greatly influenced the very definition of Source Code, and the claim being made here is very close to Stallman's freedom to study.

>"You don't actually need code to evaluate security, you can analyze a binary"

Correct

>"just as well"

No, of course analyzing source code is easier and analyzing binaries is harder. But it's still possible (feasible is the word used by the original comment)

>Steelman for my current understanding is limited to "you can check if it writes files/accesses network, and if it doesn't, then by definition the chats are private and its secure",

I didn't say anything about that? I mean those are valid tactics as part of a wider toolset, but I specifically said binaries, because it maps one to one with the source code. If you can find something in the source code, you can find it in the binary and viceversa. Analyzing file accesses and networks, or runtime analysis of any kind, is going to mostly be orthogonal to source code/binary static analysis, the only difference being whether you have a debug map to source code or to the machine code.

This is a very central conflict of Free Software, what I want to make clear is that Free Software refuses to study closed source software, not because it is impossible, but because it is unjustly hard. Free Software never claims it is impossible to study closed source software, it claims that source code access is a right, and they prefer rejecting to use closed source software, and thus never need to perform binary analysis.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#295
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are also using proprietary, closed-source hardware and operating system underneath the app that can do whatever they want. This line of reasoning ultimately leads to - unless you craft every atom and every bit yourself your data isn't secure. Which may be true, but is a pointless discussion.

No it means you calculate how much risk you're taking on, vendor by vendor. Do all companies have the same reputation before your eyes?

> Do all companies have the same reputation before your eyes?

If they're not credibly audited, then yeah.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#296
It is a bit counter-intuitive because there'd be law enforcement lobby working very hard to make sure that they can read private WhatsApp chats. I don't think it is reasonable to treat the entity that literally runs a spy agency monitoring all digital communication as the arbiter and investigator of what is and isn't private. The incentives just aren't there.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#297
post #266

I witnessed something recently that points unambiguously at Whatsapp chats being not private. Not two months ago I sent a single photo to a friend of some random MacGyver kitchen contraption I made. Never described it, just a photo with the lol. He replied lol. He never reshared nor discussed it with anyone else. We never spoke about this before or after. Two days later he starts seeing ads on Facebook for a proper v…

It takes more than two days to develop and roll out a new product. That goes for kitchen appliances, too.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We didn't review the entire source code Then it's not fully investigated. That should put any assessments to rest.

I have to assume you have never worked on security cataloging of third party dependencies on a large code base. Because if you had, you would realize how ridiculous it is to state that app security can't be assessed until you have read 100% of the code That's like saying "well, we don't know how many other houses in the city might be on fire, so we should let this one burn until we know for sure"

It sounds like your salary has depended on believing things like a partial audit is worthwhile in the case that a client is the actual adversary.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#300

WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption has been independently investigated: https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/ws/files/324396471/whatsapp.pdf Full version here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2025/794.pdf We didn't review the entire source code, only the cryptographic core. That said, the main issue we found was that the WhatsApp servers ultimately decide who is and isn't in a particular chat. Dan Goodin wrote about it here: https://arst…

They also decide what public key is associated with a phone number, right? Unless you verify in person.

That's protected cryptographically with key transparency. Anyone can check what the current published keys for a user are, and be sure they get the same value as any other user. Specifically, your wa client checks that these keys are the right key.
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