Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 621 posts

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#291

Post by dustbunny »

kelnos wrote: post #173
trueismywork wrote: post #167

> The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1. The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to…

Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable, and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop.

I have a 17" XPS and it's great as a computer for that floor of the house. Ie: for sitting at the kitchen table or the couch. I have a 13" for portability which is great because it's so small and light.

MacBook pros these days are really heavy. Having a MBP and an Air is actually a fair inventory but the MBP is just so expensive.

I do like the desktop form factor of keyboard and monitor but the 17"er is nice to use while I'm up making coffee in the morning or while sitting on the couch at night

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#292

Post by pdimitar »

makeitdouble wrote: post #253
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

> That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop.

With all due respect -- meh.

I have a fairly old-ish laptop that I am not bothered to upgrade because a Ryzen 5500U is super capable to this day (and I don't do local LLMs) and it has a 10Gbps USB Type-C port, an HDMI port, and a USB 3.0 Type-A port. And an SD card reader.

I bought a hub. I put the laptop on a stand and plug its Type-C 10Gbps slot in the hub. Job done.

All this clamoring about being able to replace ports surely resonates with many people but to this day I don't view it as a true advantage. If you have to carry your laptop to a dedicated office, a stand and a hub are table stakes anyway. And that's not even touching a proper big display, keyboard and a mouse.

And furthermore, if making the ports flexible leads to too many design compromises then to me that means that I am making a bad deal.

I am periodically inspecting Framework laptops and I still find them lacking. Their appeal to tinkerers has IMO peaked and they should pivot to another pitch or they might not survive. Though I really, really hope they do. We need the competition.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#293

Post by kube-system »

koiueo wrote: post #230
orthoxerox wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted the innards of my laptop to be upgradable, I would want the only part of it that would stay with me for the next decade or two (the chassis) to be damn near perfect. There's a reason why there are enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads. These things were built like a German executive sedan.

> enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads This. It baffles me that companies like System76 and Framework refuse to borrow from an existing successful solution like ThinkPad. I remember asking System76 representative over the phone about trackpoint; from time to time I revisit that one thread on Framework forums about trackpoint keyboard... No progress there. The…

I don’t know about today but once upon a time those trackpoints were encumbered by patent issues.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#294

Post by LarsAlereon »

YorickPeterse wrote: post #183
trueismywork wrote: post #167

> The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1. The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to…

> The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides. Indeed, I just pressed a "Buy now" button without a moment's thought. Clearly the fault is all mine.

So basically this article is 50/50 insightful and helpful feedback from a Framework customer, mixed with gripes by someone who bought the wrong laptop for them. Part of the reason this is getting a sour response is that most laptop companies don't even offer the choice of a larger, more expandable model. Framework does, and you bought it despite not actually wanting that, then dinged it for the compromises inherent in the design you chose. It seems like the 13.5" Framework was the obvious fit for your needs?

To use a silly food analogy, imagine there's a popular salsa company. The customer base has been clamoring for them to release an extra-hot salsa that also has corn in it, though that's a polarizing combination. A purchaser gives it a bad review because, in addition to some very legitimate critiques of the spice flavors, it's too hot and corn doesn't belong in salsa. People who wanted the extra-hot salsa with corn have a point when they say that person should have reviewed the medium salsa without corn.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#295

Post by rewgs »

neogodless wrote: post #146
rewgs wrote: post #95

Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is right now. Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with Hyprland. PC laptop hardware i…

I don't know how many laptops people own to rule out every possible model. My own experience is owning several various versions of Lenovo Legion for gaming and work, and currently an Acer Nitro 16. None of them have given me a single issue. Great screens, great keyboards, great performance, easy to upgrade the SSD or RAM. Short of really intense gaming, the fans aren't audible. And they are all around $1000-1200 USD.…

...and battery life that is nowhere near a Mac. And consistently shit speakers.

I'm sorry but if you can't see that a $1,000 Acer doesn't compare to a Mac by any conceivable hardware metric then we don't have much to talk about.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#297

Post by ndiddy »

operator-name wrote: post #263
ndiddy wrote: post #4

I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop). It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't…

> a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options There’s been a bunch of Windows ARM laptops that aim to directly compete with the M series Macs. Linux compatibility will depend on make on model.

As far as I'm aware, all of the Snapdragon ARM laptops are existing chassis designs with different motherboards. I'm not sure how ARM affects build quality. Moreover, Snapdragon X support on Linux is still heavily a work in progress with issues with sound, power management, webcam support, and video acceleration. I don't know why anyone would go with a Snapdragon laptop today when Intel Lunar Lake excels at the exact same workloads Snapdragon X does, has similar battery life, and Intel actually works on getting device support upstreamed in a timely manner.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#298

Post by anamexis »

Levitating wrote: post #280
idle_zealot wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it. What is the implication of this? You're not allowed to criticize a product unless you're being forced to buy it? What is the list of companies you're allowed to levy any critiques of, then? Your electricity provider? You could always move, right? Is this the mentality that leads people to only ever criticize government power and let al…

I sometimes feel like people criticize products as if they were offered to them personally. The pricing of a product may be absurd to them but if it were absurd to everyone there wouldn't be a market for it. You can objectively compare the features between two products and criticize them that way. But to criticize the price you need to attach a monetary value to those features. With a framework one of those features…

So you're not allowed to criticize pricing unless you're forced to buy it?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#299

Post by Tade0 »

I don't recommended getting a Framework to anyone who isn't interested specifically in repairability, as it has its quirks and doesn't feel like something which should cost this much. I've broken something in every laptop I've ever owned (+the butterfly keyboard in a company 2019 MBP), so to me it's an important feature.

That being said my previous device - a "gaming" laptop - was essentially e-waste two years after purchase because firmware updates stopped despite there being unresolved issues and the official parts store didn't even have basic items like fans, which I had to get from AliExpress instead. Eventually it was the cheapo Intel SSD which did it in, as it slowed to a crawl from being 80% full for too long.

I think there's a problem with my 1yo FW16's keyboard as during intense gaming the "D" key temporarily just stops responding, but if it ever fails completely I can order a new keyboard and once it arrives replace it literally within a minute.

Other parts take longer, but the general idea is that any sort of malfunction is manageable.

> This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't sitting in the bottom right corner of your eye when you look at the display.

This is about the power LED and it makes me wonder how dark is the author's environment? Is that healthy?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#300

Post by notepad0x90 »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

Your comment is sensible, so long as repair parts aren't duds all the time, and repairs don't cost you the same as a purchase.

For most laptops, including macs, replacing things like batteries and screens is not what makes them irreparable, but it is things like the cpu, discrete gpu, etc.. I applaud framework on what they're doing, but it isn't there yet. If anything on the mothrerboard breaks, you're looking at a hefty repair bill to replace it. If they keep a decent stock of original,tested and quality parts long-term (10+ years) that would be one thing, but if "repair" means upgrading to the latest stuff, then it is just saving you on a replacement.

Ideally, I would purchase replacement components at the time of purchase, so if I have a loose $300 after the initial purchase, I might spend it on a spare ram, cpu, or gpu. Now, with that money, I can only buy cosmetic/casing parts, battery, connectors and such. Again, I appreciate their direction, and if we're spending to support them alone, that's great. But they have been around for a while, and some constructive criticism regarding value might be good.

Post reply on HN