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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#291

Post by robertakarobin »

Terr_ wrote: post #235
robertakarobin wrote: post #108

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

> My sister and I looked at each other and at the same time went, "Ohhhh!" I suppose the next step would be to upgrade from single-blind to double-blind, so that your mom won't know which month is the placebo month...

Interestingly my son has an identical twin! I like to joke that one is the control and sleeps in the house and the other has to sleep in the storage shed out back, and when they're 18 we'll publish a paper comparing their emotional development. :)

I always thought DNA determined pretty much everything, and we raised them exactly the same, but they have distinct personalities and some different physical features, although of course they're much more similar than they are different. My other son shows some symptoms of anxiety but not as much, yet.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#292

Post by hintklb »

tombert wrote: post #270
hintklb wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but strong disagree here. I have had a lot of Spinal and sleep issues. I have read almost all new literature on this niche subject and I have brought to my spine doctor some new therapy and treatments they had literally no idea about. Those treatments have changed my life. As an engineer I read a lot of deep technical paper as my day job. Medical papers are comparatively relatively simple. The most complex part…

This just reads as Dunning Kruger-esque to me. You think that because you know how to read a technical paper in engineering, you're as or more competent than a doctor. Yes, experts are wrong all the time, they have the disability of being human, but this seems like an extremely anti-intellectual take.

sorry but your take seems to be the anti-intellectual here.

You seem to think that the educated class got a monopoly on knowledge on that field, yet after that claim to know that experts are wrong all the time. The anti-intellectual take is to give up on trying to understand as much as you can in a field because you don't have the right credentials to do so. Yes, medical papers are not that complicated to read.

That doesn't make you more competent than your doctor. But it probably makes you a better advocate for yourself than your doctor is.

My point is: Don't discount yourself reading papers and doing your own research. Then work with your "credentialed experts" to come to an agreement. Don't ever think that the "experts" got your best interest at heart.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#293

Post by ecshafer »

Pikachuface.jpg

The mass prescribing of SSRIs is going to be seen like leaches (well worse since leaches actually do help in some cases). The rock bottom levels of replication of results in physchiatry and these SSRIs, the whole area should be treated much more like snake oil than it is.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#294

Post by hintklb »

dekhn wrote: post #213
tjohns wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's good to read papers and be curious. It's also good to work with your doctors (as you seem to have done), have a discussion, and mutually agree on a plan of treatment. Experts don't know everything. But they probably know some things you don't, and can think of questions you might not to have even thought to ask. As the saying goes, "you don't know what you don't know". Experience matters. There's also a…

Cherrypicking is bad, but worse is reading a paper and thinking you understand what it says, when you don't actually understand what it says. Or thinking that a paper and its data can be observed neutrally as a factual and accurate statement for what work was actually done. My experience in journal club- basically, a group of grad students who all read a paper and then discuss it in person- taught me that most papers…

By extending your statement you are essentially saying that the credentialed experts have a monopoly on knowledge in their fields? As anyone else reading a paper probably think he understands but actually doesn't? What a weird take.

The knowledge is out there. Yes there are a ton of bogus papers and a ton of bad research. Not everyone got the critical knowledge to figure this out but I also don't think this is only reserved to the "experts". They are also subject to groupthink and other political pressure to think a specific way.

At the end of the day, do your best own research and work with your "expert" to agree on a solution.

Pushing back on people reading paper is an anti-intellectual take (to use the same wording as another poster below).

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#295

Post by GOD_Over_Djinn »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #223
GOD_Over_Djinn wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I wouldn't recommend searching for "chemical imbalance debunked" unless you intend to confirm an existing bias. The internet will show you whatever you want, and there are enough people who distrust medical professionals that any search for "debunking" will be a minefield of fringe theories and grifters. I'd recommend someone start generally, searching for information about clinical depression, and then build on that…

One of the first search results for me was a paper published in Nature. Other top results were from respected institutions like the NIH and Harvard University. Hardly grifters or crazies.

The caveat you cite applies to basically any and all internet (or even media) consumption, and is therefore a non-argument.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#296

Post by lemming »

robertakarobin wrote: post #108

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

I'm very sorry to hear your story, and I'm really glad the medication has worked well for you and your family. It's early days, but it seems to be working well for ours too.

I also really admire the way you're dealing patiently with everyone in this thread arguing in bad faith, you have a lot more tolerance than I do! Hopefully it's not getting to you. Best wishes.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#297

Post by in_cahoots »

some_guy_nobel wrote: post #187
jacobgkau wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. It doesn't contain the word "placebo." Can you quote where it "explicitly mentions" what you're saying it does?

Wow, a shockingly argumentative tone for someone who is just flat out wrong. Beyond the response someone else commented explaining exactly where the comparison was mentioned, the anecdote itself is useful in offering an experience of someone who's life has been changed by the drug. In any case, the study mentioned in the article is a meta-analysis about children, not adults, so there is no onus on OP to qualify anyth…

To be fair, I didn't read that suggestion as being about a possible placebo effect, just that you can't attribute any one good day to the pill. It's like climate change- it undeniably exists, but you can't blame climate change for a single heat wave or freak storm.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#298

Post by nick__m »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #249
poly2it wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depression is caused by laziness [...]. My kids know that they aren't permitted to be lazy. Do you really believe this, or do you believe your children aren't depressed? Your comment is not in accordance with science. Depression is a complex topic. I'm having trouble imagining a way to be more wrong. Is this satire?

[flagged]

you have the causality reversed....

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#299

Post by GOD_Over_Djinn »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #193
GOD_Over_Djinn wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Probably because the commenter is not a medical professional and isn't qualified to judge the veracity of anything they find. "Do your own research" is a fucking plague on our modern world and is why the internet is like wall to wall grifters now. By all means, Google whatever you like, but if you show up to a doctors office waving WebMD sheets in a medical professionals face, you are going to be mocked and you deser…

I both agree and disagree. The issue is not independent thinking and research - it’s the low media literacy of the average person that makes them vulnerable to frauds, grifters, and crazies.

With that said, the first few search results for the query were from the journal Nature, the NIH, and Harvard university. Hardly the loony or malicious caricature that you attempt to paint.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#300

Post by s5300 »

jacobgkau wrote: post #144
robertakarobin wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had/have a lot of reservations about it too, and discussed it at length with our pediatrician over months of observation. We decided what was more horrifying was hearing a 7-year-old — who has supportive family and friends, good health, no traumatic events, no major life changes going on, never worries where food/shelter is coming from — say he feels like "he shouldn't be on Earth anymore" and suddenly react with…

I'd be more interested in where your 7-year-old even learned phrases like "I feel like I shouldn't be on Earth anymore."

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