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The disguised return of EU Chat Control

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Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#291

Post by brigandish »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #288
rambojohnson wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it escapes you because all these treaty clauses read like safeguards, but in practice they’re just friction. Once a government decides it needs mass surveillance for ‘security,’ the law bends. The real question isn’t what the ECHR allows... it’s why people still think legal frameworks can meaningfully restrain a state that has already decided not to be restrained. it escapes me hwo so many can be so naive.

> it’s why people still think legal frameworks can meaningfully restrain a state that has already decided not to be restrained. The EU isn't really a state, though. The members are states, but not the EU.

As the saying goes, “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”

EU law and its constitution have primacy.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#292

Post by thrance »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #238
rambojohnson wrote: post #228

the comment thread here is obnoxiously naive, and speaks to the privilege some people having been raised under the calm of supposedly democratic societies. you're all arguing about the syntax of rights while governments rewrite the grammar. once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification. the "law" doesn’t restrain power, power instructs law where to kneel. stop trea…

> once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification This is defeatist, fatalist nonsense.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

No, this is just being pragmatic and realizing that against a sufficiently powerful authoritarian push, legal arguments fall short. Until you address the root causes of something like Chat Control being tried again and again until it passes, any victory is just a brief respite.

You need political will to ensure freedom is respected and wanted by all. After decades of media and reactionary propaganda about crime scaremongering, it's hardly surprising that politicians are able to draft such laws with a straight face.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#293

Post by realusername »

hunterpayne wrote: post #221
realusername wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends the version of the declaration, the french one has zero exception listed.

Is that the same France which arrested the CEO of a E2E chat provider (without even trumped up charges) and forced them to make backdoors for them?

I never said the country follows it though

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#294

Post by swiftcoder »

ChadNauseam wrote: post #271
anonym29 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You're misinterpreting what they mean by "50% false positive rate". Let's say there are 10 child traffickers in the country. A 50% false positive rate might mean this system detects 7 of them, but then also detects 7 people who are not child traffickers. The reason it's an absurdly good rate is because the thing they are looking for is so rare. If one in a million people are child traffickers, and you have a false po…

> The reason it's an absurdly good rate is because the thing they are looking for is so rare

If their 50% false positive rate resulted in 100,000 false positives among the German population of 85 million... it's not as rare as all that - you have greater than 1-in-1,000 odds of being a false positive.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#295

Post by zkmon »

So, you want to negotiate on how much privacy you are willing to give up in order to have a strong state-level control. But what do you have at your disposal, to influence that negotiation? Vote? Technology? Tariffs?

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#296

Post by Cupprum »

wmf wrote: post #202
Cupprum wrote: post #179

I sort of hope someone will leak all private information about Peter Hummelgaard. He is one of the people behind this proposal, just so he would get a taste of his own medicine.

That would only "prove" that government officials should be exempt from government surveillance.

God, thats a hard fight in that case :(

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#297

Post by BartjeD »

spwa4 wrote: post #261
pcrh wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass surveillance has already been ruled to be in contravention of the Human Rights act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_8_of_the_European_Conv... > A 2014 report to the UN General Assembly by the United Nations' top official for counter-terrorism and human rights condemned mass electronic surveillance as a clear violation of core privacy rights guaranteed by multiple treaties and conventions and makes a distin…

A decision by the European Court of Justice or any other court does not apply to any legislative branch like the EU commission (not parliament), when making new laws. New laws simply override old laws (to be interpreted as specializations, more or less exceptions, to the old laws)

That's not true, because there is a hierarchy of legality.

If a principle of the EU legal order is at stake, such as the right to privacy, then that constitutional imperative can very well override a new law.

The commission and parliament are well aware of this risk. They often choose to have laws advised on by the courts, in advance. To avoid a legal mess.

This is normal in a functional democracy. To avoid abuse of power / overreach by any institution.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#298

Post by AlgebraFox »

psychoslave wrote: post #283
andix wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal already announced they won't add back doors, even if it means they are going to be blocked. Which is really funny, because the EU commission recommends to their employees to use Signal for texting.

But MEP will be exempted, so they can continue to use Signal. Rules for thy.

No. Signal will pull out their services from EU. Nobody will be able to download or access Signal.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#299

Post by constantcrying »

pcrh wrote: post #53

The right to privacy is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights, article 8 [0]. It escapes me how politicians can repeatedly attempt to violate this. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/european-convention-h...

The idea of constitutional guarantees, which should be defended absolutely and in their strongest sense only exists inside the US.

Especially the EU, with limited democratic oversight, does not have to be too concerned about things like this.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#300

Post by psychoslave »

AlgebraFox wrote: post #298
psychoslave wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But MEP will be exempted, so they can continue to use Signal. Rules for thy.

No. Signal will pull out their services from EU. Nobody will be able to download or access Signal.

Well, unless https://github.com/signalapp becomes inaccessible, I guess that "all you have to do" is run a bunch of new instances of the server by ourself. Not sure how complicated it is though.
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