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.NET 10

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET 10

#291

Post by stevefan1999 »

parliament32 wrote: post #155
jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I think the key problem is that a large number of startups are shipping software in containers, and dotnet requiring a CLR is not particularly well-suited for containerization. It's like the old school Java JVM model. You have to ship a copy of the runtime with every container, and if you're doing proper microservices it's an awful lot of overhead. Yes I'm aware MS makes it easy to build containers and even single ex…

> dotnet requiring a CLR is not particularly well-suited for containerization

This is a solved problem within csproj to do dotnet publish to OCI containers already. I even have some csproj override to magically add it to every console projects in the solution.

The biggest problem IMO is because of the JIT generated code not being able to be saved, so it will always be regenerated on the fly, and compound that with a not so state-of-the-art GC (wish we have ZGC someday), it will create brief moment of latency very easily and making the timing fat-tailed.

NativeAOT and ReadyToRun remedies this problem by compiling ahead of time, but you trade space with time.

Re: .NET 10

#292

Post by Timon3 »

thiago_fm wrote: post #245
dahauns wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and has the best parts of Typescript I really like C#, but I wouldn't go that far - unions are at least on the horizon, but I've sometimes come to miss the power and flexibility of TS's structural typing...(And so has Hejlsberg, apparently, seeing his reasoning for choosing go over C# for tsc :) )

Might be my own taste, but except a few of the common and easy to understand structural typing code, I find it sometimes actually make things needlessly complex. I also write lots of Typescript, and the furthest I go is to use 'Omit' and other utility types, but already feel like it's too much.

I've come to really appreciate Typescripts structural typing, because it reduces some of the overhead & prevents the unnecessarily tight coupling that has often annoyed me in other languages.

The overhead argument seems fairly objective to me - clean code with low coupling in C# et al. requires separate definitions of interfaces and implementations, explicit conversion methods between compatible interfaces etc. This adds up over time and makes refactoring pretty annoying.

The tight coupling happens when people don't bother to define interfaces. Suddenly I have to couple class hierarchy to classes from unrelated modules, all so the compiler is happy when I pass structurally equivalent data. To keep my own modules clean I have to add yet more interfaces, conversion methods etc!

Re: .NET 10

#293

Post by zamalek »

jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I was somewhat recently attempting to help my manager get a C# dev environment set up. He was used to doing everything the C/Java/JavaScript/Python/almost-every-language-under-the-sun way, and avoiding the "Microsoft way" of doing things created so many roadblocks. I had no idea that over the previous ~20 years I had been practicing a C# compiler summoning ritual and had become incredibly good at it. From the start I recommended installing Rider, VS, or VSCode, and that's eventually what worked - but having to drink the kool aid to that extent is fucking absurd.

I personally won't be using it, given the choice, again. I don't like exceptions, but can live with them. I don't like null, but can live with it. Nuget is complete and utter garbage. You still have to resort to all forms of unreliable hacks in order to redirect it to a locally clone (and if you do use a feed to avoid that, good luck with getting the local cache to not be completely moronic).

(Look, it certainly didn't help that the project itself was heavily enterprisey because the developers hadn't kicked those habits)

Re: .NET 10

#294

Post by stusmall »

zamalek wrote: post #293
jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I was somewhat recently attempting to help my manager get a C# dev environment set up. He was used to doing everything the C/Java/JavaScript/Python/almost-every-language-under-the-sun way, and avoiding the "Microsoft way" of doing things created so many roadblocks. I had no idea that over the previous ~20 years I had been practicing a C# compiler summoning ritual and had become incredibly good at it. From the start I…

>He was used to doing everything the C/Java/JavaScript/Python/almost-every-language-under-the-sun way, and avoiding the "Microsoft way" of doing things created so many roadblocks.

What exactly does this mean? I haven't touched .NET in earnest in over 10 years. I know the ecosystem has evolved a lot since then, but I don't know how or in what ways

Re: .NET 10

#295

Post by Xelbair »

gf000 wrote: post #280
Xelbair wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vault, Keycloak, Flink are language agnostic or there exist bindings for most popular languages. Documentation is vastly better compared to Java ones, it's like day and night, LINQ is vastly superior to anything that Java offered - but i haven't used java in a very long time. And every time i had to write java it felt like i went backwards in time by 5-10 years. If i remember right Java's webserver beats ASP.NET in p…

> Documentation is vastly better compared to Java ones, it's like day and night This is absolutely not my experience, especially when it comes to the ecosystem and third-party libraries. Like Java is pretty much the best in this category.

well you can't judge 3rd party libraries, can you? by that metric js/ts would be the worst thing in existence.

I've seen some great, some horrible 3rd party docs on .net side - same with java.

Re: .NET 10

#296

Post by Nelkins »

ethin wrote: post #129

How is .NET debugging on the command line? I don't use IDEs that often and last time I tried making something serious with .NET I couldn't find any kind of reliable debugger that I could just spin up and get to grips with. And I wasn't exactly very keen on switching from VS build tools to full VS just to debug .NET apps.

There's an open source one by Samsung that is excellent, never had any issues with it: https://github.com/Samsung/netcoredbg

Re: .NET 10

#297

Post by davey48016 »

duxup wrote: post #141
jcmontx wrote: post #136

I've worked with .NET for over 10 years and we built our startup on top of it. Here are my thoughts: Pros: * Stability * Very decent standard library * Good balance between productivity and robustness * Great package management * Extremely easy to upgrade, so essentially free goodies (performance) every year or so Cons: * Very MSFT dominated (obviously) * Subpar tooling outside of Windows (I'm looking at you C# Dev K…

Anecdotal opinion , but as someone who works in Node and JS land a lot of the time. I think .NET is pretty cool.

.NET Core and ASP.NET Core (especially the minimal APIs) seem to have taken a lot of influence from Node API libraries like Express.

Re: .NET 10

#298

Post by banashark »

stiiv wrote: post #172
dude250711 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good for, and I am not being sarcastic or snarky, justifying high pay and gate-keeping. Developers should set up more barriers for entry - look at doctors and lawyers.

I think I agree with you. When I was part of a growing F# team a number of years ago, everyone we hired was an enthusiast who just loved coding in F# and wanted an opportunity to do it professionally. It turned out that this love, combined with the constraints of the language, led to a super-clean and legible code base. The quality was (in my estimation) outstanding, and I was sad to leave it.

I'm at my current company (actually writing mostly typescript and node services now) because of a YC "who's hiring" post that mentioned F# positions (bait and switch /s, but my experience lined up heavily with the team I ended up joining which didn't use F#).

Re: .NET 10

#299

Post by banashark »

xerxes249 wrote: post #206
ikety wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F# seems really awesome. Used it briefly for an internal tool. Are you at a startup working with it?

I am working at a 2k fte company and we use F# for a lot, its very nice to work with, prefer Rider over Visual Studio though.

Are you on (or would you mind adding your company to) the F# companies list?

https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies

Re: .NET 10

#300

Post by pixl97 »

catapart wrote: post #227

Literally just started building a game engine with .NET 9, so naturally there's an update within a week. -_- Seems like a good update, though! And I'm glad it's early enough that updating the framework probably shouldn't break anything. Really as long as there's no issues with the DearImGUI dependency (would be a surprise!), I'm pretty happy about the update.

9 isn't an LTS version... always go with an LTS version.
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