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Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

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Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#291

Post by Rohansi »

einsteinx2 wrote: post #178
Rohansi wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips Don't you think it's interesting that it's an option for Macs but not iPad Pros? They both use the same SoC. > So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of…

> Don't you think it's interesting that it's an option for Macs but not iPad Pros? They both use the same SoC. I think that has more to due with product positioning. They see the iPad as an iPhone style device (though it’s slowly getting more Mac-like), so kept it locked down. Not saying I agree with their decision, but I get why they made it. > Give it a few more years. Asahi will probably be so far behind that it w…

> I think that has more to due with product positioning.

Definitely. That part makes sense - I don't understand why they didn't lock it down from the start though. There was no guarantee a project like Asahi would have succeeded given the complete lack of documentation from Apple. Perhaps it was just a part of their plans to transition from x86 -> ARM because taking away the ability to install a third-party OS might have driven people away.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#292

Post by ben-schaaf »

NaomiLehman wrote: post #167
linguae wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Framework 13 that I use as my personal laptop and a work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. I love my Framework 13. I'm a long-time Mac user, but I increasingly found myself alienated by locked-down hardware and increasingly locked-down software, and so I ended up switching back to PCs. I greatly appreciate my Framework 13's user-serviceability. While I use Windows 11 + WSL (Microsoft Office is the main thing holding me…

My beef with the Framework laptops is that their memory bandwidth is 5 to 8 times slower (depending on the generation, CPU, and RAM) than that of a $1,500 refurbished MacBook Pro M1 Max 64GB.

A M1 Max has 400GB/s of memory bandwidth but the CPU is only capable of using half of that (see https://tlkh.hashnode.dev/benchmarking-the-apple-m1-max#memo...). So a framework 13 with ddr 5 5600 with 86GB/s of memory bandwidth has a bit less than half, nowhere near ⅕th.

If we compare like-to-like the rtx 5070 in a framework 16 has 384GB/s on its own, add the 86 and the combined memory bandwidth is higher than a M1 Max.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#293

Post by wtallis »

devilbunny wrote: post #290
wtallis wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of a BIOS option called "Linux-compatible sleep mode" is a dead giveaway that the default behavior is enshittified sleep that wakes up your system periodically so it can check your email, phone home to Microsoft, and maybe fail to go back to sleep. Having such an obvious name like that is a gift, because otherwise you have to start decoding Intel Marketing names for their features to figure out which ar…

Much as I might wish this were really the case, the truth is that it wasn't Windows' fault - IIRC from the explanation, Windows supports sleep modes that Linux doesn't, but it doesn't support them very well, and it's apparently not a rare issue. Something to do with S3 sleep mode IIRC.

The blame is shared between Microsoft and Intel. It's not really that Windows supports sleep modes that Linux doesn't, but that Microsoft and Intel conspired to get rid of S3 sleep mode entirely.

The intention was to replace S3 with fine-grained per-device sleep modes that would in aggregate lead to idle power that is almost as good as S3 while allowing for the "wake up and check email" kind of features. But to the surprise of approximately nobody, this complex multi-vendor strategy relying on high-quality drivers for every single peripheral in the machine did not work out as well as planned. The plan also did not in any way require that S3 sleep be eliminated from newer hardware platforms; that was just malicious behavior from the Wintel conspiracy.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#294

Post by vpShane »

heavyset_go wrote: post #283
mort96 wrote: post #5

I have a 2021 MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro. It's getting a bit old, so it would be nice to replace it with a new MacBook Pro in not too long. But honestly, losing Linux support would be pretty devastating. Docker and virtualization just isn't the same. There's lots of interesting stuff you can do with your hardware in Linux, there's for example Linux-specific software which puts the WiFi card in promiscuous mode and do…

Thanks for pointing out one thing that gets lost in a lot of these discussions: the fact that the Linux kernel itself is something that is desirable, especially if you're a power user, sys/networking/etc admin or developer. There are so many big and little things you get for free with the kernel running directly on your hardware that you just don't, and can't, get on macOS or Linux VMs.

It is desirable. a bit off topic: I forgot the login to my Mac M1 and now I can't 'install Linux' on it, due to 'activation lock' - no apple support since I can't remember the phone number or e-mail and got it from e-bay. it worked, installed Mac, but I went full Linux and let it sit for a minute.

Apple Support told me in their own words it's bricked. It's mine. I own it.

I'd _love_ to play with M1 with my own Linux install. I'm not about to open it up and unsolder/solder things though.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#295

Post by heavyset_go »

vpShane wrote: post #294
heavyset_go wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for pointing out one thing that gets lost in a lot of these discussions: the fact that the Linux kernel itself is something that is desirable, especially if you're a power user, sys/networking/etc admin or developer. There are so many big and little things you get for free with the kernel running directly on your hardware that you just don't, and can't, get on macOS or Linux VMs.

It is desirable. a bit off topic: I forgot the login to my Mac M1 and now I can't 'install Linux' on it, due to 'activation lock' - no apple support since I can't remember the phone number or e-mail and got it from e-bay. it worked, installed Mac, but I went full Linux and let it sit for a minute. Apple Support told me in their own words it's bricked. It's mine. I own it. I'd _love_ to play with M1 with my own Linux…

It's rough hearing that something similar is still an issue. I had a similar problem[1], like... 10 years ago now, with the original iPad Mini.

Apple support told me they couldn't do anything about it and I was essentially locked out of my own device forever.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26482635

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#296

Post by fluoridation »

rowanG077 wrote: post #285
fluoridation wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>price is still extremely important and doesn't really factor into the definition of the best Heh. Who says it doesn't? >Taken to the extreme, Imagine [...] Okay. Likewise, imagine a computer exactly like you've described, except it costs five cents and measures a cubic kilometer. Sure, there may be a couple people for whom operating such a gigantic machine is no problem, but the vast majority of the world will never…

> Heh. Who says it doesn't? Well, it’s not a formal definition, of course. But most review sites that compare products typically distinguish between best overall and best value categories. For example, if I asked gamers what the best GPU is, most would say the NVIDIA RTX 5090. Its price-to-performance ratio is terrible, but it still holds the crown. > Okay. Likewise, imagine a computer exactly like you've described,…

>For example, if I asked gamers what the best GPU is, most would say the NVIDIA RTX 5090. Its price-to-performance ratio is terrible, but it still holds the crown.

Not for me. My 3090 can already max out my UPS. Being gifted a 5090 would be a terrible inconvenience for me. What you mean is that it's the fastest gaming GPU. Is that what "best" means? Something is the best in its product category if it tops the chart on the primary property of that category that applies to some abstract consumer? An abstract gamer with no other constraints would just want the fastest GPU, so the fastest one is the best? Fine. But then I'm forced to ask, where do categories begin and end? The 5090 is the best gaming GPU, but it's not the best GPU. Macs may be the best laptops (I don't know, but I'll grant it), but they're not the best PCs, or the best gaming laptops. Or, if I'm feeling cheeky, not the best laptops for under $(price of a Mac - 100).

>If you have a laptop sitting on a table and you start using it, there’s nothing in the experience that tells you what it costs.

I didn't realize arguing like this was possible. So if the laptop instead of being borrowed was yours, but if you ever type and send an email with "テスト" on the subject and body it would explode, but you never send that email (because you don't speak Japanese), that's a perfectly fine laptop, right? I mean, it's the same thing; in one instance the price is irrelevant to you (because you didn't pay it), and in the other the little lithium bomb is irrelevant to you (because you can't ever set it off). So they're both equally good products, at least subjectively.

>build quality, display, battery life, input feel, and so on

Those are the way they are not in small part because of how much they cost. Do you think Dell wouldn't rather make make much higher quality laptops for the same cost and the same price? Yes, you can get a feel for the price of something by using it. Haven't you ever heard someone say "ugh, this feels so cheap"? It's a vague feeling that's difficult to attribute, but it is informed by real experience. Inexpensive products often "feel cheap" and bad to use, while more expensive products don't, or to a lesser degree.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#297

Post by rowanG077 »

fluoridation wrote: post #296
rowanG077 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heh. Who says it doesn't? Well, it’s not a formal definition, of course. But most review sites that compare products typically distinguish between best overall and best value categories. For example, if I asked gamers what the best GPU is, most would say the NVIDIA RTX 5090. Its price-to-performance ratio is terrible, but it still holds the crown. > Okay. Likewise, imagine a computer exactly like you've described,…

>For example, if I asked gamers what the best GPU is, most would say the NVIDIA RTX 5090. Its price-to-performance ratio is terrible, but it still holds the crown. Not for me. My 3090 can already max out my UPS. Being gifted a 5090 would be a terrible inconvenience for me. What you mean is that it's the fastest gaming GPU. Is that what "best" means? Something is the best in its product category if it tops the chart o…

I see the points you’re making, but I think there are a few misunderstandings in how you’re framing the discussion.

1. "Best" versus "fastest" or "most expensive"

When I said the RTX 5090 is "the best GPU" for gaming, I meant it objectively tops the category on the core property most gamers care about: raw performance. That’s exactly why review sites separate "best overall" from "best value", they are acknowledging that there are multiple ways to judge a product. If you’re defining "best" by convenience or personal constraints, that’s fine, but that’s a subjective criterion, not the same as evaluating intrinsic qualities of the product. Conflating the two muddies this discussion.

2. Thought experiments

The "laptop that explodes if you type a certain email" analogy is clever, but it’s not equivalent to price. Price is an extrinsic property. It doesn’t affect the physical functionality or design of the laptop itself. A latent, never-triggered bug or trap is intrinsic, because it could affect you at any time if the condition arises. By contrast, whether you paid $50 million or $500 for the laptop doesn’t change its display quality, weight, or battery life.

3. "Feels cheap" argument

It’s true that price influences how companies allocate resources, and a higher-priced laptop can often feel better due to higher-quality materials. But that’s a correlation, not an inherent property. You can measure build quality, screen brightness, or input feel directly without knowing the price. Saying "Dell could make a higher-quality laptop for the same price" is exactly my point: price itself is not part of the intrinsic definition of quality, it’s part of the product offering.

I get that you’re making thought experiments and analogies to illustrate points, but many of them subtly shift the definitions or mix subjective preferences with objective qualities. That makes it hard to have a clear discussion about the intrinsic qualities of products versus their price or accessibility. If you keep ignoring this point and try to again shift the discussion I will stop engaging because I don't consider you acting in good faith.

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#298

Post by Klonoar »

scuff3d wrote: post #288
Klonoar wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More cooks in the kitchen doesn't always move the needle. You're being needlessly flippant for no real reason.

No, I was making a point. Asahi Linux is a volunteer project. Devs commit their free time to work on something incredibly difficult, giving people the ability to run Linux on an entirely new platform, and all people can do is complain it isn't good enough. And this is just one example, you see this kind of crap all over the Open Source community. Providing constructive feedback is one thing, bitching that they aren't…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#299

Post by ashenke »

jwar1767 wrote: post #224
bornfreddy wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it matter if hardware still works in 10 years if you can't upgrade software anymore, nor can you replace it with something you have control over (like Linux)? I still have a fully functioning iPhone 4s somewhere. I could still use it as a daily driver hardware-wise, but it is sadly deprecated (32-bit), so - no software support anymore.

I installed Linux Mint on a 2014 macbook pro for my wife and its still going strong.

Yes and the discussion here is about how that's not something that might be possible in the future, based on M1 and M2 support still being partial and M3 really experimental

Re: Asahi Linux Still Working on Apple M3 Support, M1n1 Bootloader Going Rust

#300

Post by kstenerud »

rjdj377dhabsn wrote: post #17
mort96 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The battery drain in sleep mode is why Linux is relegated to a dual-boot option for use when necessary for me, rather than my daily driver. Battery drain when in use or idle seems perfectly acceptable, but I can't use a laptop which discharges itself overnight while the lid is closed. I'm sad that Asahi never implemented a proper sleep mode.

Why not just suspend to disk? My Asus laptop with 32 GB of RAM is 4 years old, but resumes from the encrypted swap partition in under 5 seconds, which is fast enough for me.

https://web.archive.org/web/20241219125418/https://social.tr...

In a nutshell:

> Getting hibernate to work would mean a metric truckload of work on the drivers to support restoring firmware state. Not happening any time soon, it's basically forever the bottom of the priority list and we're unlikely to ever run out of other things to work on first.

> Fixing PM with no documentation is a game of trial and error. You do "more things" like macOS and hope that one of them reduces power consumption.

> It definitely isn't obvious what we're missing, and we don't know what the real answer is going to be. If we did, it would already be fixed.

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