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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#291
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reaction is very weak, though. Chat Control is an act of terrorism and it should have triggered criminal investigation why this has gone this far. Before you downvote: If terrorism is defined as using violence or threats to intimidate a population for political or ideological ends, then “Chat Control” qualifies in substance. Violence doesn’t have to leave blood. Psychological and coercive violence is recognised i…

Sorry, but that's talk like that that cheapen the meaning of terrorism. Once you expand it to "targeting civilian or civilian infrastructure", already it's cheapened. I agree with the expansion of meaning, but that mean nazi resistance was terrorism. Ukraine counterstrike on the crimea bridge/russian raffineries is terrorism. I do think it is, but now i do need to qualify terrorism before using the word. If we expand…

While I don't want to defend the application of "terrorism" to chat control, the examples in your second paragraph don't follow from the definition outlined above. Resistance to Nazis was meant to damage military and administrative capabilities. The Crimea bridge is a valid military target. I think Russian refineries, too, could be considered a valid target, since they support the Russian military. But even if they can't be considered valid targets, the question of intention remains.

And while I'm sure there are some people (from opposites sides of the political spectrum) who would agree that poverty-causing laws and taxation are violence, perhaps even terrorism, there also remains the question of intention.

In contrast, the 2011 attacks in Norway, the Unabomber attacks, and anything the Rote Armee Fraktion did aside from robbing banks, all have a very clear intention to primarily affect public opinion, political discourse, and civil society in general.

My doubt in the parent comment's assertations lies in the intention as well. Certainly this policy would cause fear in some way, but I think the intention of this policy really is just a techno-authoritarian power grab.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, now show me the legally accurate description of leftist parties with the opposite political craziness within it. The greens are filled with communists for example. Or the literal communist party, Die Linke. Why are they never referred to as the extreme left.

Here you go: https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/sicherheit/extremismus/lin... Feel free to read the chapter „Linksextremismus“. It talks about various violent Antifa groups and other cases. Keep in mind that the definition of „extreme left“ refers to organizations that want to replace the basic democratic system with communism or anarchy (according to the German constitutional court). It does not necessarily include „…

But doesn’t this prove my point.

The AfD, like all political parties, is simply a coalition of various smaller subgroups.

It’s by no means “extreme” right in entirety. Yet, leftist parties harboring actual communists are not labeled “extreme.”

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. We do have a way to reinforce our position, though! We can design and consume technology that makes this hard. We can stop working for companies that build centralized platforms for messaging. We can teach our neighbors how important rights to privacy and speech are in language that they understand. There can be enough friction that this b…

This is just lifestylist nonsense to make yourself feel better than everyone else. If you design technology to make this hard, they will hit you with a stick, and find everyone who uses your technology and hit them with a stick. If you still do it, they will hit you all with the sticks until you are dead, and also hit your family and friends with sticks. If you don't work for them, they'll find a bro who will. Teachi…

Username checks out.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not in government just yet. But if they gain control, expect their position to change. That's why it is critical to reverse government positions across the block, or we'll see a new authoritarian wave sweep Europe.

[flagged]

You are not living under socialism, but under capitalism, don't try to paint it another way.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#296
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.

[flagged]

Well, CBS News dedicated an entire episode on these “propaganda stories”…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germ...

Germany’s constitution (the Basic Law) does protect freedom of opinion and expression, but it explicitly allows restrictions via “general laws” to protect personal honor, youth, and human dignity.

Recent enforcement shows how this plays out: police raids have targeted individuals posting “hate speech” or “extremist” content online. What constitutes hate speech or extremist content is “conveniently” interpreted at times.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#297
post #90
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t expect the general topic to become “finally settled” within our lifetime.

I expect it to become settled, just not in the way we want it. Sure, there is the rollercoaster, ups and downs, small wins and losses going on all the time. But look at the general trends - these freedoms that we enjoyed are by and large being chipped away, it's all trending down, worldwide. It's two steps back, one step forward. Maybe CC doesn't get put in place this particular time, but they will ram it through eve…

You're right: even when one proposal gets stopped, it rarely kills the idea

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#298

OK, really hot take here: -ChatControl, as it is currently defined, is not going to happen, because it's absolutely stupid and would make impossible, amongst other things, online banking -Yet, there is a growing and legitimate demand for lawful interception of 'chat' services. I mean, "sure, your bank account got emptied, but we can't look into that because it happened via Signal" just isn't a good look -So, somethin…

> So, something has got to give. Something does have to give: the constant demands for interception capabilities on end-to-end encrypted protocols. Those demands must be thoroughly destroyed every time they rear their head again.

I haven't seen anything that suggests chat control would do anything to e2e. I am genuinely curious. It seems to be an often parroted point but... ?

It's just local image hashing and matching? Or is this only one implementation idea?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#299
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...

> Altparteien

One of those empty words one needs to be careful with it does not mean anything, and everything. Politics is not about suppressing ideas of other people, somethings parties can agree on others not so much.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#300

In my eyes this is just a technicality. "Mit der CDU/CSU wird es keine anlasslose Chatkontrolle geben, wie sie von einigen Staaten in der EU gefordert wird." Anlass is cause/reason here, so keine anlasslose literally translated means: not without cause/reason. What about "reasonable causes", and the infrastructure enabling those? Be it legal/bureaucratic/technical? IMO it's already in place, mostly, and got abused ma…

That's the main crux with the current EU proposition: that they want to surveil all chat, regardless of whether the citizen involved is suspected of a crime.

Wiretapping a chat if the citizen is suspected of a crime AND after a judge has reviewed the evidence and green-lit such surveillance is - imho - more acceptable. We do that with phones, why would we not do it with chats?

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